Is it WotC’s responsibility to bring people to the hobby?

[delericho]

And that way of thinking is part of what's driving the decline of the hobby.

Maybe a part, but a pretty small one.

A rather larger issue would be that WoW and other video games are now "close enough" at providing the core experience for most people, not to mention better in some other ways.

 

[Mark CMG]

Although is true that they have diversified well into boardgames (and they will probably continue to do so. They certainly should) that is not their core product. Unless they're trying to make it. I don't know that.

Also, I would argue that, at least around me, I have seen role playing gamers getting into boardgames because of D&D boardgames. I haven't seen any boardgamers getting into D&D RPG because of the same boardgames. If they did, it would benefit WotC, not any other company.

It's about making the brand more ubiquitous. RPGers who play the boardgames and manage to get others to play the boardgames plant the seeds of the brand and perhaps those new players find their way to the RPG.

Could you give a couple of examples of product placement? I can see none in Europe.

A couple of examples are -

‘Big Bang Theory’ Has The Most Remembered Product Placement Among Dramas/Sitcoms; ‘American Idol’ Had Most Placement Overall - Ratings | TVbytheNumbers

http://cliqueclack.com/tv/2011/02/03/community-dungeons-dragons-episode/

And I believe there was a commercial where a nerd meets a girl who happens to have a PH in a paundry basket, though that was some time ago.

 

[Leviatham]

Thank You. I feel I have the ability to turn a phrase or two also.

However, responding to a question and not accepting the premise are not the same thing, nor mutually exclusive.

Oh dear... let's not get into semantics please... It can make the conversation go on for too long.

I think you'd be surprised by the lack of a reaction. I'm certain they already accept this as an immutable truth.

Uhmm.. I need more than your reassurances, I'm afraid.

To use your hypothetical: I think Hasbro would be more than happy to extend the right to make accessories for Barbie, especially if making such accessories was economically unfeasable for themselves, but would significantly increase sales of Barbie.

Expanding the Market does not exclusively mean "Expanding your own Market". Especially when one's own revenue stream may have reached it's limit with current offerings (again, hypothetically...I'm not making the case that this is currently so for WotC or our hobby/market). Expanding the Market for everybody is sometimes the only way to increase one's own potential revenue. Conversely, making choices that keeps the market small in order to restrict competitors, also restricts the potential of your own revenue.

WotC is expanding its market. The boardgames are their expansion. So is DnDNext. I question whether they're doing it in the right way or not is a different issue.

Of course it's wise to support your own products and market. I haven't said otherwise. Business however is not a single aspect endeavor. Can one expand their revenue even when ignoring some aspects of their business environment...? Sure. But one is never going to maximize one's potential without remaining aware of and adressing all aspects of one's business. Ignoring an aspect that could significantly expand one's profits is foolish. If one does that, then they'd have no business being in business.

The lack of awareness is what has got D&D into trouble (part of, at least). However awareness that there is wider hobby than one's own product doesn't mean you have any responsibility to increase that hobby, mainly because by expanding your own product you're expanding the hobby. Why do both?

I don't disagree that we players are also one of the best means of expanding our hobby. I just disagree with you that it isn't WotC's responsibility too.

I guess we're on stalemate. You are not saying anything that convinces me that it is WotC responsibility, and I can't say anything that will make you think that it isn't.

Your OP didn't posit the question: "Is it exclusively WotC's responsibility to bring people into the hobby?" All you asked was whether it was WotC's responsibility...or ours. I don't believe it's either/or...it's both.

I really am not going to get into semantics. However I will say I don't believe it is their responsibility, exclusively or not.

However, I do disagree with some of your assertions, and I agree completely with what you mentioned of your friends beliefs.

I don't agree with your statement that the image of D&D as the flagship of RPG's is dilluting. I'm seeing more and more references to D&D in popular culture than I've ever seen before, including placement and actual play on many popular TV shows (Eureka, Supernatural, and The Big Bang Theory to name a few). And I've seen casual references (including the name Dungeons & Dragons) on many large prime-time network programs (West Wing, Fringe, Castle, etc.). This may not be noticable in Europe, but here in the States it's becoming more and more common. I'd be willing to bet everything I have and everything I ever will have, that the number of non-gamers that have heard of Dungeons & Dragons, and have never heard of RPG's, Role-Playing (in reference to our hobby), or any other such word describing our hobby, are the vast majority.

Sorry, but I can't accept that. Simply the presence of Pathfinder and the fact that they sell more than D&D at the moment means their presence is diluting. It might still be the strongest - I won't argue that - but to pretend it is as strong as it was 10 or 15 years ago is naive.

I also know that your belief that games other than D&D have not suffered edition wars is incorrect. Less vocal or less prominent does not mean non-existant. You may not have noticed them, but they do exist.

Yep. Been corrected on that one.

As for this:


...I think the above is an overly narrow vision. A more accurate statement is: "For some reason, when it comes to anything, people...all people, will at one time or another become petty and pathetic and fight over unimportant issues that can be resolved by understanding and incusiveness."

But we're not talking about anything. I am talking about our hobby. You're welcome to consider my station as narrow, but I was focusing it to the hobby in hand, not to any other walk of life.

I also find it interesting that you believe our hobby/market/industry is not shrinking (though I have no concrete information if it is or not), while also going on to say that you believe our hobby/market/industry is not expanding... Your position seems inconsistent.

I believe is growing very slowly. Too slowly.

You seem to contradict yourself to the point I'm not really sure if you think the game is shrinking, expanding, or remaining static...as you seemed to imply all three at different times in your OP. Like how can there be an unprecedented amount of new companies, yet the market is not expanding...?[/QUOTE

Because the companies are, basically, individuals who have decided to publish their games because bypassing publishers and crowdfunding makes it easier.

Those games are being sold to existing gamers, thus the number of products is getting bigger, but not expanding.

If that was true, wouldn't the market collapse...? Wouldn't it be impossible for new companies to make money if the market is not expanding...? Or do you feel that new companies are simply dividing up a static pie into more and more pieces, and dilluting revenues for everybody...?

That is exactly right. I do believe that the pie is not growing at the rate it needs to sustain the number of products.

Your statements seem to me to display a lack of understanding in how businesses and markets work.

Oh, I know how they work... And how they don't. Just because there are some contradictions in a forum post written between tasks at work, don't assume to know someone's knowledge.

Also I use "we" very liberally. It's a Spanish thing that doesn't translate well when I type in English.

Personally, I think our hobby is expanding, though not expanding strongly at the moment. However, I believe that will significantly change once 5E is released...or at least I hope it will.

Time will tell.

 

[Leviatham]

It's about making the brand more ubiquitous. RPGers who play the boardgames and manage to get others to play the boardgames plant the seeds of the brand and perhaps those new players find their way to the RPG.

Perhaps, but I haven't seen that happen yet. Until I see it happening, I would believe to be a marginal benefit to D&D, and no benefit to the hobby as a whole.

A couple of examples are -

‘Big Bang Theory’ Has The Most Remembered Product Placement Among Dramas/Sitcoms; ‘American Idol’ Had Most Placement Overall - Ratings | TVbytheNumbers

http://cliqueclack.com/tv/2011/02/03/community-dungeons-dragons-episode/

And I believe there was a commercial where a nerd meets a girl who happens to have a PH in a paundry basket, though that was some time ago.

And you think that is enough?

Also, and to get back to my OP, that's placing D&D on the map. RPGs by association. If someone who's never, ever heard of RPGs before that episode, watches it, that person will know about D&D, not about RPGs or the choices out there.

That is looking after the interests of D&D, which is what WotC should do, not the hobby.

 

[Leviatham]

Maybe a part, but a pretty small one.

A rather larger issue would be that WoW and other video games are now "close enough" at providing the core experience for most people, not to mention better in some other ways.

That is a completely different conversation, but I will also say it's our fault as players.

We are the one who choose videogames over tabletop RPGs. The video games have offered an experience that, without having the human interaction or flexibility of tabletop RPGs, is more immediate and convenient in how it circumvents distances than a tabletop.

But let's not blame videogames. We are the ones who stopped playing tabletops and went into videogames. And I use "we" loosely here.

 

[kitsune9]

I think it's WotC's sole responsibility for bringing people into its brand, but not necessarily the hobby as a whole. It's a business and like any business, you want to attract customers and expand. It's not my job to go around and spread the Gospel according to D&D and preach it on the mountain.

WotC should have advertising budgets, should be in communities and schools, should have marketing agreements with video game companies and mainstream retail brick and mortal stores. They should be sponsoring events, kids TV shows, and should be on Cartoon Network and Nickelodean or whatever kids watch these days.

However, I'm a realist and I know that WotC doesn't have this budget, so of course, they are going to rely on word of mouth to be their advertising and marketing. So if a player feels that they need to go out and get the word out, go for it.

 

[GSHamster]

I think "responsibility" is the wrong word. "Self-interest" would be a better one.

On the topic of methods, it seems to me that WotC has been severely hampered by the current situation with the computer game licences. We all remember SSI's gold box games, and Bioware/Interplay's Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment at the end of the 90s.

One of the great failures of 3E and 4E, imo, is the failure to produce computer games of that quality (or at all, even).

 

[Mark CMG]

Perhaps, but I haven't seen that happen yet. Until I see it happening, I would believe to be a marginal benefit to D&D, and no benefit to the hobby as a whole.

It all adds up.

And you think that is enough?

Maybe you should check around a bit and see what else is out there. I understand everyone forms their own impressions but your opinion about this subject seems to lack even basic research.

 

[Herschel]

Richard’s opinion: the hobby is shrinking and it is because of the attitude of WotC towards the game industry and the edition wars that ensue every time there is a new D&D edition release. Dungeons & Dragons is still the flagship and gateway game by default and people recognize the brand, whereas other games are not recognised, thus if you try to use another game to introduce people to the hobby, people won’t be interested since there won’t be any familiarity. WotC doesn’t do enough to bring people into the hobby – instead, it’s just trying to bring players back and not expanding the demographics of the hobby.

He's right, to a point.

1. Back in OD&D and AD&D days it was much more of a "big tent" because the games were so similar. Moving from 1E to 2E was a breeze, for example.

2. Anyone looking from the outside saw the "Dungeons & Dragons" logo, with or without the "Advanced" prefix and similar looking books even (at least through early 2E). WotC owns teh right to the easily and most recognizable brand in the industry.

3. There also wasn't the internet forum issue and every schmuck with a keyboard blogging like the wind. Back then, you moreso had to sit down and check out the game to see if you'd like it. There are edition warriors on this site who deride 4E, for example, who admit they've never played it nor even really read it, just read some blog posts yet claim to be experts on why it's a bad game. When you sit down and experience things first hand you're more likely to accept things or look at things without the outlet of anaymous internet rancor, which turns people off in-general. People on the outside of the fanbase have Google too.

First of all I don’t believe the hobby is shrinking. It certainly is not growing at the rate I’d like it to, but it hardly getting smaller. The number of companies being created at the moment is unprecedented, not in a small measure thanks to Kickstarter and other crowd-funding websites. Judging by the number of projects being successfully funded (and I don’t have a precise number), there is still plenty of interest in the hobby.

"Shrinking" is kind of a loaded term, but 'the number of companies being created' is no measure, especially today. You can now self-publish and go all pdf with a laptop. That's a huge change in teh industry and a lot of these new "companies" are just that, one guy with a laptop.

The image of D&D being the flagship amongst non-gamers is also one that’s diluting rapidly.

This is flat-out false. WotC's marketing may leave a lot to be desired but D&D is still the name people from the outside know. More licensed products would be a boon though and WotC lagging means the industry lags.

I don’t feel it is WotC responsibility to bring people to the role playing games scene. It is their responsibility to bring people to D&D.

Which is one-and-the-same. Every other RPG (and WotC themselves, with purchasing the IP) have leached from D&D because it was the first, the biggest and the most recognized.

The main thing WotC hasn’t done until the start of the D&DNext beta campaign is to involve the community, both players and publishers.

This really means nothing outside of to those already in the hobby.

If anything, the licence that came with 4th Ed. is draconian and plenty of people went to OGL instead – to Paizo’s advantage, needless to say.

The OGL was a major mistake from a business standpoint, period. Fanboys love it but at the end of the day it was a horrible decision.

Secondly their litigation culture that has brought them to threaten fans for having content in websites and blogs has left a lot of people with a bitter taste.

Protecting your IP is serious business and a lot of people have done things they shouldn't have with it. Just because it's "only a game" does not change the fact its production is peoples' livelihood.

However, as much as I dislike the position of ignorance WotC’s executives run the business from (and they are ignorant of the hobby. They may know about business, but about the game and the hobby? Not a thing), I think that to place the weight of the whole hobby on the shoulders of that one company, just because they happen to own the game that started it all, is unfair.

The hobby is a very minute portion of their overall business, and they are a business. They know plenty about the hobby, they allocate the resources they deem profitable to placate a bunch of irrational fanboys

True is that no other update of a game has created an editions war.

So wrong it's painful. Try talking to WoD fans and see how wrong you are, or Shadowrun, or.....

For some reason, when is about our beloved D&D, we (and I will put everyone in the same bag for once, even though I know it’s an unfair generalisation) become petty and pathetic and fight over unimportant issues that can be resolved by using what RPGs promote so well: a bit of imagination.

That's everyone everywhere. Look at any comment section on any internet story.

And as for the market not expanding; that is everyone’s fault.

Yes it is, but then the entire industry relies on the D&D name to bring it recognition.

Publishers are horrendous at taking marketing risks to promote the games. When was the last time that you saw an RPG advertised, full page and full colour, in a high-street magazine? When was the last time you saw an RPG advertised in a video-games magazine? When was the last time you saw a publisher having a booth in a non-game related tradeshow?

True, but with the size of the hobby, how many resources will a business want to commit to such a niche market? they want to make profitable moves.

But then, we players have become very, very bad at marketing. We used to bring new people to games 20 years ago. We would talk to people, we’d try new games and get together and play. We’d publish our own fanzines and write our own materials to give to other people (at least we did in Spain). Today a few talk in forums, fewer write blogs and tweet. But the majority don’t get involved to the level they used to. The majority is happy to play in their little groups and never expand.

Part of this is we've gotten to be a lazy, disassociated culture. The electronic age brings easy access to words from around the world, but they're more impersonal. Anonymity and distance are not good for creating true bonds among people. Facebook and WoW "friends" are not real friends, they're electronic aquaintances. People like the convenience of online gaming, but that's not the strength of this hobby.

Well, it is not up to Wizards of the Coast to fly the flag that will encompass the whole hobby. Coca-Cola doesn’t fly the flag of all carbonated drinks, why should WotC help people get into other games?

It's in their interest to draw people to teh hobby and every member of the hobby knows (or should know) that. Coke & Pepsi do fly the flag for carbonated drinks, their marketing brings industry recognition.

It is up to everyone. It’s up to publishers to become professionals, not just in the books they publish, but in the way they present themselves to the world and the way they operate. Do you want to be one of the big boys? Then start by behaving like one. And I am not saying most publishers aren't professionals, at all.

Agreed.

And it is up to us, the players, to get out there and talk to each other. Not just online, but in real life. And to people who are unaware of what we do. And to challenge the preconceptions that gamer-geeks are a bunch of socially impaired, sun-fearing hermits with a hygiene problem. We are better than that.3

Very much agreed.

 

[Leviatham]

It all adds up.



Maybe you should check around a bit and see what else is out there. I understand everyone forms their own impressions but your opinion about this subject seems to lack even basic research.

That is a cheap way to dismiss someone's opinion. Have you really done much research to reply to my post or just used your knowledge?

I could just as easily say you lack an understanding of marketing based on your previous post.

Also, you're not addressing my questions. If they do well, why aren't they any bigger or selling more? Why isn't the hobby bigger?

And why aren't gamers doing more?