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D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

Takhisis.jpg


Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.


 
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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

Dire Bare

Legend
I really am at a loss how folks are not getting it...
You repeat this line a lot here in this thread. Maybe it's not us . . .

Again, how you prefer to view the D&D worlds and multiverse is fine, how you choose to use it in your games is fine. Not trying to tell you your preferences aren't legit or are somehow lesser. But to be upset that your ideas don't match up with current official canon, and that others actually like the existing canon, or have even other ways of looking at things . . . I mean, it's okay that they don't, but it just isn't something to get so worked up over.
 

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Bolares

Hero
Heh, Baker doesn't get to decide that! He is the original author of the setting, but doesn't own or control it.
I'm not saying he decided that. But if you follow him at all, he's always pretty clear about what WotC believes is or isn't canon. The novels are not canon. That doesn't mean npcs and locations in them can't be made canon later, but those specific stories aren't canon.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
The Eberron novels aren't canon? Since when?
Since every Eberron campaign is assumed to start at the same exact "current year" of 998 (and has been that way in 3.5E, 4E, and 5E)... nothing that appears in anything written down after that could be considered "canon". It's all just one player's (or one writer's) extension and story.

Not that "canon" means anything anyway, so I don't even know why I'm bothering to answer. :)
 


Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
This is fine fan-design, but does not represent any version of official canon I've ever heard.

The idea that a world with a unique cosmology (Eberron), that it's entire cosmology exists within it's crystal sphere (inner, outer, mirror planes and all), which then floats in the material plane, which is then surrounded by the Great Wheel . . . no thanks. It's not elegant, doesn't make much sense, and doesn't really match up with D&D lore.

How various worlds with unique cosmologies interact with the greater D&D multiverse is deliberately left vague in 5E D&D, and in most of the recent prior editions. Tortured explanations of how Athas (Dark Sun) and Krynn (Dragonlance) fit into D&D cosmology existed during the 2E era . . . but that's best left in the past.

Officially? Eberron has it's own set of outer planes that echo D&D cosmology, but are not directly a part of it. Is Eberron connected to the other D&D worlds? Yes. Exactly how does that work? Unclear, deliberately so. It's something that doesn't need to be explained in official lore, and only matters in your home game if you want it to.

I didn't make this up. Look at the below, from Eberron's book;

Eberron is part of the Great Wheel of the multiverse, as described in the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide. At the same time, it is fundamentally apart from the rest of the Great Wheel, sealed off from the other planes even while it's encircled by its own wheeling cosmology. Eberron's unique station in the multiverse is an important aspect of the world: its planes have profound and shifting influences on the Material Plane, and it is sheltered from the influences and machinations of gods and other powers elsewhere on the Great Wheel.

The planet of Eberron is the heart of its own Material Plane. It is surrounded by the Ring of Siberys. Beyond this band of dragonshards, twelve moons orbit the world. To date, no creature from Eberron has explored the moons, and none can say whether they are lifeless rocks or thriving worlds. Some sages believe that the moons are connected to the planes, or that they might even be physical extensions of the planes, but the truth of these assertions remains unknown.



Jeremy Crawford then clarifies the above text in this video, at about 24:30. At around 28, Crawford specifically mentions how Keith Baker devised how the Ring of Siberys separates Eberron from the multiverse with "little planes" to call their own. The Ring encircles the crystal sphere of Eberron, that shields it from the Great Wheel.

My above comment with images was my best attempt at collating the above two sources. If you don't consider this Crawford interview as serious that is your prerogative, but he does say this was devised jointly with Keith Baker, and it does seem like just a clarification of the text from Rising from the Last War.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
. . . I mean, it's okay that they don't, but it just isn't something to get so worked up over.
Especially when there is nothing can be done about it anyway... as the books have already been printed and aren't going to be changed any time soon. But who knows... maybe when 6E gets written, everything about the "multiverse" will be put back to the way they want it.

But of course... that would just prove our points that the lore doesn't matter, because it would show once again that no lore is official and any lore can be written and re-written on a whim by whomever has the WotC D&D letterhead at the time.
 

dave2008

Legend
I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding but rather a different view of what D&D is about. For me D&D was always it's story. I only followed D&D by reading it's novel for years before I played my first P&P and since years when I played my last P&P (around the time Curse of Strahd was released).

When I played a game of FR, I always only saw it as taking a snapshot of the official canon at that point, play with it for a while and then letting this borrowed bubble burst once the game was done. Next campaign would jump off from the then current canon at that time.

So for me it's way more important how WotC sees the official canon then whatever happens in my current game. Because that's how I will experience the story going forward with the next novel and splatbook
Well that is completely opposite from my viewpoint! The only D&D novels I have read are some dragonlance novels about 35 years ago or something!
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You are describing a completely different kind of being from what the progenitor dragons would be in a 3.5 or 4e Eberron game wherein they created the entire universe.
From what I can see, the language used for the creation portion are "legends say" and "sages agree" and so on. It's rumor that they created the universe, and it's possible that it was true that they created the Eberron universe by isolating it from the rest of the Great Wheel. Or that they never existed at all.

Is there something outside of the 3.5 creation myth that gives the progenitor wyrms objective reality and says definitively that they created everything?
 


You repeat this line a lot here in this thread. Maybe it's not us . . .

Again, how you prefer to view the D&D worlds and multiverse is fine, how you choose to use it in your games is fine. Not trying to tell you your preferences aren't legit or are somehow lesser. But to be upset that your ideas don't match up with current official canon, and that others actually like the existing canon, or have even other ways of looking at things . . . I mean, it's okay that they don't, but it just isn't something to get so worked up over.
Imagine you're at a coffee shop, enjoying your latte, minding your own business, when suddenly somebody runs up to you and starts proselytizing to you. You tell them that you're not interested in whatever religion they're selling, but then they reveal that they're Baha'i and argue that whatever you believe, Baha'i's got that covered, because really, all religions are just different stages of the revelation of Baha'ism, and are fundamentally the same in their reverence of God, and all the world's major religious icons were prophets of that God.

Except that you're a Buddhist and thus don't even believe in the existence of a capital-G God, much less the idea that Gautama Buddha was a misinterpreted prophet of said God rather than a perfectly enlightened being above all gods. And so you stare at them going "What the actual hell are you talking about?" Only for said God to have been the barista the entire time, watching your conversation and silently laughing at you, before showing you a vision with incontrovertible proof that everything you believed about the universe was wrong.

Doctorbadwolf's example of the Progenitor Dragons being "demoted" by being shoved into the Great Wheel is similar. If we take Eberron as standalone, the Progenitors created everything. They may have been literal god dragons, or they may be personifications of the abstract forces of creation, destruction, and transformation; but point is, they're top of the heap. But if we take Eberron as being one universe among many in the Great Wheel... well, we don't have the solid story of who created the universe; maybe it was Ahriman and Jazirian, maybe it was the interplay of the purest essences of Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil mixing together and reacting with each other, or maybe WotC's gonna retcon it in Fizban's as being Bahamut and Tiamat who created not just the Material Plane but everything; but point is, it wasn't the Progenitors. The Progenitors are now three powerful, but not all-powerful beings who rather than creating the entire universe decided to go to an existing, if empty corner of the universe and turn it into their playground. The story largely plays out the same as before: the Progenitors create the 13 planes, Siberys and Khyber argue, eventually Khyber kills Siberys but then Eberron imprisons Khyber, creating the planet Eberron; but the Progenitors in this scenario still have been demoted to a lower class of being. And if a person from Eberron learns the truth of their existence and place within the universe, whether by communing with the Progenitors or by being shown the truth by an interloper from another world, that would shatter their entire worldview.
 

dave2008

Legend
Basically. The Great Wheel is two things. One, is a diagram. I don't care about the diagram at all. The problem would be the exact same if the diagram was a world tree or a world axis or a flow chart or if there was no diagram and it was just an alphabetical list of planes with their descriptions.

The other thing the Great Wheel is, is those planes and their descriptions. It's The Nine Hells, Astral Plane, Planes of various prime elements, Sigil, and all the things contained within those planes and locations. In 4e, the City of Brass is in the Plane of Fire if you're playing Greyhawk. You just have to use old material because no new stuff was published. In Nerath, an AU version of the City of Brass is in a hot area of the Elemental Chaos that combines fire and air, possibly other elements, to create a pocket of stability rules over by genies. In FR, IIRC it is similarly placed but has some different history, and stronger ties directly to the world in the form of the politics of Calimshan. In Eberron, I don't recall if there even is a City of Brass in 4e, but if there is it was placed somewhere that fit Eberron's cosmology.

Fernia is not a renamed plane of fire, it is much more complex than that.
Thank you for clarification. I believe I see the issue, but I no longer think I can offer you any help. We are just to different in this respect. I don't think I can explain any better without sounding condescending and that would not be my intent. You will just have to be unhappy I guess (until WotC changes course) - sorry!
 
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Parmandur

Book-Friend
From what I can see, the language used for the creation portion are "legends say" and "sages agree" and so on. It's rumor that they created the universe, and it's possible that it was true that they created the Eberron universe by isolating it from the rest of the Great Wheel. Or that they never existed at all.

Is there something outside of the 3.5 creation myth that gives the progenitor wyrms objective reality and says definitively that they created everything?
Or maybe they created a universe. Or maybe the universe at a given table.
 



DEFCON 1

Legend
What I mean is that if the novels were canon it would have one...
I wouldn't even really agree with that... because any idea that novels were "metaplot" would imply that it should affect the game itself. But they don't... nothing that happens in any Forgotten Realms novel changes whatever the current campaign setting guide that people would use for their games. It wouldn't be until a follow-up setting guide got published that maybe something that happened in a novel would get referenced in the new book. But even that's unlikely. I mean take a look at the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide... how many of Elminster's exploits from all the novels he has been in are referenced even tangentially to what appears in that book? So for all intents and purposes... almost nothing Elminster has done has impacted the game's so-called "canon" or "metaplot". Thus it might as well not even exist.
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
They are no called to be part of the material plane, or demiplanes either. Even inside the great wheel, Eberron planes are still planes, that influence the material plane, but are not part of it.

EDIT: So, you're right; the Ring of Sibyris seems to be clarified to also be what encases Eberron and shelters it from the Great Wheel. It is not clear if the Ring also encases the 12 Planes/Moons (in previous editions it did not) or if the moons orbit the Ring, and themselves are not sheltered from the Great Wheel (meaning, Eberron is within the Ring, but Mabar is not). If the latter, theoretically one could jump to Thelanis from Eberron, and from there to say the Feywild, or vice-verse. If the former, this doesn't really work.

It's not clarified either way, so I guess that's left to interpretation.
 
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