D&D 4E Is Pathfinder Combat As Slow as 4e?

[Walking Dad]

I like them for low level monsters. Just re-watching LOTR, they slew goblins and orcs by the boatloads, but only really stabbed/arrowed them once (excepting for certain foes, like the bow-wielder who killed Boromir). It actually fits very well. Once you get past the heroic tier though they become a bit silly. Heck even Drizzt can't take down a giant in one hit

Not sure past heroic tier is that silly... what would be a typical paragon level hero (besides Drizzt) fight? I can see level 12 orc minions (advanced to that level) be killed in a single stroke by a level 14 wizard's area spell. Making them all non-minions would shove controllers away from area affects to status buck-load entirely.

 

[renau1g]

That's my experience as well. I played in a Pathfinder Society scenairo yesterday, and with 4 combat encounters plus some good role playing, it took about 2 and a half hours to play through the whole scenario. That's pretty typical. I've played and ran a lot of LFR mods since spring of 2009, and even the ones with only two combat encounters (most have three) typically took five or more hours to complete. The ones with three combat encounters generally exceeded 6 hours to complete. Here's the kicker. Both Pathfinder Society scenarios and LFR modules are supposed to be completed in approximately 4 hours. The difference in combat speed between the two systems is staggering.

I've not played PF scenarios in person, just over PbP, but in LFR my group has routinely completed modules in under 3.5 hours, rather than the 4. Again, we've gotten decent with out knowledge of our PCs abilities and tactics, and even though we've never gamed together in many instances, 5 minutes of tactical discussion before the module starts goes a long way to making combat smooth.

Not sure past heroic tier is that silly... what would be a typical paragon level hero (besides Drizzt) fight? I can see level 12 orc minions (advanced to that level) be killed in a single stroke by a level 14 wizard's area spell. Making them all non-minions would shove controllers away from area affects to status buck-load entirely.

I've not seen too many wizards built for minion clearing, AoE spells are awesome even without minions. Look at Winged Horde. By Paragon, you Enlarge & Admixture the spell to Fire/Thunder and you've got an amazing control and damaging spell to enemies only.

In a typical Drizzt novel he kills a whole whack of orcs (at least in the last one I read) and then has long difficult battles against giants. There's some humanoids that may make sense, but one-hit kills on giants or other epic foes is silly, especially if said wizard uses Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation and the couple points of damage from the zone kill a level 30 minion.

 

[Celtavian]

Not sure past heroic tier is that silly... what would be a typical paragon level hero (besides Drizzt) fight? I can see level 12 orc minions (advanced to that level) be killed in a single stroke by a level 14 wizard's area spell. Making them all non-minions would shove controllers away from area affects to status buck-load entirely.

You point out another reason why I hated minions. It allowed 4E designers to marginalize AoE and try to sell us all on a mechanical way of making controllers look powerful, when they really weren't.

The minion mechanic combined with controller weak AoE was like pulling back the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. What type of game designer makes a game where the mechanical curtain is pulled back for all to see?

At least when you make lvl 12 Orc minions in Pathfinder and a Wizard takes them all out, he feels like a powerful wizard. He doesn't feel like a chump because the reality is that any farmer with a flask of alchemist fire could take out all the same minions with a lucky roll.

And Pathfinder removed the problem with low level minion-type mobs not giving xp due to CR rating. That was a huge step in the right direction and showed very intelligent game design choices by James Jacobs and his crew. Now a lvl 10 or 20 fighter could, if so chooses, slaughter entire tribes of orcs and level. So you could now do a meaningful adventure like Driz'zit's a 1000 orcs and have it make mechanical sense. Great game design decision that fits fantasy situations like Lord of the Rings.

The big problem with using large groups of low CR minion-type creatures in 3E was that they didn't provide a tangible gain for a high level party. So putting an army of kobolds or orcs in a high level adventure was a waste of time for the players. They felt like they were wasting their time because they received no xp and the DM felt like he was wasting time because he had to make sure the xp flow was enough to keep the players advancing.

Now a Pathfinder DM can toss in those armies of low CR creatures, giving the feel of a huge epic battle, and still havec his players advance. To me that was a far more creative and effective way of incorporating those mass combat minion encounters that make characters feel like they have stomped an army.

In 4E a 1000 minions of appropriate level would easily kill a party, even a high level party, because their offensive stats are high enough to harm the party. But in Pathfinder not only are the minion-level mobs weak on hit points, but their offensive stats are weak. So a high level party can destroy hundreds of them giving the feel of being a fighting beast capable of destroying an army at the highest levels of the game. Which is how they should feel about lvl 15 or so. A 15th level plus wizard or fighter should be able to decimate hordes of humanoids while not being hurt much at all.

That mechanic is better represented in Pathfinder for my tastes, especially now that those minion-level mobs grant xp.

 

[Walking Dad]

... especially if said wizard uses Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation and the couple points of damage from the zone kill a level 30 minion.

I have to agree to this. But only level 28+ level characters should meet level 30 minions, not level 1 wizards with cloud of daggers.

 

[Wraith Form]

IME, the lack of a battlemat tends to slow down games. You have to pause for discussions about who is in relation to who, or whether there's a clear shot to X, or how long it would take to run away. For the scene to even work, everyone needs a "mental battlemat" anyway.

Disagree--the only one who needs a "mental battlemap" is the DM. Thus, the non-mini, non-map encumbered battle goes fast:

player: "Am I close enough to hit?"
DM: "Yup."

:: pummeling ensues ::

player: "Do I have a clear shot at Stachetwister McEvilmuffin with my bow?"
DM: "Yeah."

:: archery pummeling ensues ::

 

[Walking Dad]

'Can I push the three archers with my blast in a way that they are in the mages burst, but none off my allies?'

Single attacks are easy. Area effects without battlemat are the ones that (maybe) slow down.

 

[ruemere]

My advice is to restrict use of mats only for combats involving larger number of units. Otherwise a battlemat is likely to slow you down and restrict your imagination.

For example, fights taking place in a slowly revolving (along horizontal axis) building or on a surface of colossal sculpture are hard to run using battlemat.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[billd91]

The big problem with using large groups of low CR minion-type creatures in 3E was that they didn't provide a tangible gain for a high level party. So putting an army of kobolds or orcs in a high level adventure was a waste of time for the players. They felt like they were wasting their time because they received no xp and the DM felt like he was wasting time because he had to make sure the xp flow was enough to keep the players advancing.

Frankly, I wouldn't consider that the main problem at all. Creatures that are significantly lower level in 3e have an extremely hard time doing anything significant to the party so that playing out the combat is largely a waste of time and effort. While that happens somewhat in 1e/2e as well, at least those systems weren't open ended as far as building up PC defenses or saves against PC spells or even PC hit points.
Opening up a higher end of values skewed the 3e editions away from low-level mooks being a valued encounter type to run.

In 4E a 1000 minions of appropriate level would easily kill a party, even a high level party, because their offensive stats are high enough to harm the party. But in Pathfinder not only are the minion-level mobs weak on hit points, but their offensive stats are weak. So a high level party can destroy hundreds of them giving the feel of being a fighting beast capable of destroying an army at the highest levels of the game. Which is how they should feel about lvl 15 or so. A 15th level plus wizard or fighter should be able to decimate hordes of humanoids while not being hurt much at all.

That may be one philosophy of encounter design, but at that point, why not just narrate out the encounter? You save a lot of time and the outcome is virtually the same. That's why I think the minion rules in 4e, while bearing some flaws, have a decent use to them (particularly for 4e where defense and offense are based on level more than gear). Personally, I'd rather mix a bunch of glass jaws in with my encounters in Pathfinder (minimum hit points) so that the minions can threaten trouble but don't waste as much time and effort in attrition record-keeping.

 

[Celtavian]

Frankly, I wouldn't consider that the main problem at all. Creatures that are significantly lower level in 3e have an extremely hard time doing anything significant to the party so that playing out the combat is largely a waste of time and effort. While that happens somewhat in 1e/2e as well, at least those systems weren't open ended as far as building up PC defenses or saves against PC spells or even PC hit points.
Opening up a higher end of values skewed the 3e editions away from low-level mooks being a valued encounter type to run.

Not supposed to do anything significant in my opinion. You want your powerful wizard or fighter to be able to kill a 1000 of them with minimal threat. That's the feel a 15th to 20th level character should have. He should be one of the most fearsome beings walking the land in a high fantasy campaign.

That may be one philosophy of encounter design, but at that point, why not just narrate out the encounter? You save a lot of time and the outcome is virtually the same. That's why I think the minion rules in 4e, while bearing some flaws, have a decent use to them (particularly for 4e where defense and offense are based on level more than gear). Personally, I'd rather mix a bunch of glass jaws in with my encounters in Pathfinder (minimum hit points) so that the minions can threaten trouble but don't waste as much time and effort in attrition record-keeping.

I would narrate out such an encounter unless I wanted to let the party feel power and annihilate them in a prolonged battle calculating fatigue. They can only kill so many a round. It might add up to the point where they collapse from exhaustion. Or it might be that the mighty BBEG guy sent his army to exhaust party resources. Even for low level guys, spells still need to be spent to destroy them.

It can still make for great for xp progression. Like a 1000 CR 1/3 creatures would be about 135000 xp. That would be part of my xp flow calculation for the adventure.

And it would make the party feel dang powerful.

The fact is that minion-type flexibility is great in Pathfinder. I like more flexibility.

As I stated, 4E pulls the curtains back for the players in a way previous editions did not. I much prefer the illusion that Pathfinder creates over the illusion that 4E uses to mask what they do.

As in when my wizard is dropping AoE, it may be able to take out little minions, but it's also dang dangerous to more powerful creatures as well. That suits my tastes better than how 4E does it. Never could get it in my head that 2d6+int was powerful AoE even at high level because as a Controller you were supposed to feel powerful killing minions. I much prefer fireballs and lightning bolts that can annihilate giant armies as well kobolds. And I want to know the giants are clearly harder to kill than the kobolds and no lucky farmer with a rock will kill one of them because of that one hit point rule.

Suits my sensibilities better.

 

[renau1g]

I would narrate out such an encounter unless I wanted to let the party feel power and annihilate them in a prolonged battle calculating fatigue. They can only kill so many a round. It might add up to the point where they collapse from exhaustion. Or it might be that the mighty BBEG guy sent his army to exhaust party resources. Even for low level guys, spells still need to be spent to destroy them.

As I stated, 4E pulls the curtains back for the players in a way previous editions did not. I much prefer the illusion that Pathfinder creates over the illusion that 4E uses to mask what they do.

As in when my wizard is dropping AoE, it may be able to take out little minions, but it's also dang dangerous to more powerful creatures as well. That suits my tastes better than how 4E does it. Never could get it in my head that 2d6+int was powerful AoE even at high level because as a Controller you were supposed to feel powerful killing minions. I much prefer fireballs and lightning bolts that can annihilate giant armies as well kobolds. And I want to know the giants are clearly harder to kill than the kobolds and no lucky farmer with a rock will kill one of them because of that one hit point rule.

Suits my sensibilities better.

Is there a combat Fatigue rule(s) in PF? I must've missed that. Also, don't your players get bored after the first 100 non-challenging foes? I mean, sure it's lots of fun to slay the orcs, but eventually (especially as you mention there's minimal threat) the dice-rolling exercise gets boring. Without any threat of real challenge/risk then who cares?

One thing I remembered about minions is that they aren't minions for everyone. There was an article that stated (paraphrased) that even though a Hill Giant Grunt is a level 13 minion, a level 1 PC (or commoner) wouldn't treat them as such. They suggest that higher level minions start out as lower level Elite foes, then become standard foes as the party becomes stronger, and then finally get reduced to minions. Now that's a great way for the party to feel powerful. The enemy type first start as some of the more challenging foes out there, then become a normal challenge, before finally descending to more "bump in the road" as minions should.