Is RAISE DEAD (etc.) too readily available in most D&D campaigns?

[molonel]

MOlonal,

WE obviously play two different types of games with two different types of players. My players would question rampant resurrections and would not find the world interesting enough. YOurs obviously don't care about it so long as their playing.

I don't have rampant resurrections. No D&D game I've ever played in did. That is a caricature of your own invention, and a straw man. Resurrection is part of the world, but expensive, and costly in other ways besides money.

My players are imaginative, and appreciate deep immersive storytelling. They write fiction around their characters, and come with good backstories. But they are able to roll with the punches and run new characters when chance or story dicate a character death.

I am honored to have them at my table, and you would be, too.

 

[Treebore]

All that is being proven, once again, for the Nth time, is that we are DM's because we get to run the game the way we like to.

If you don't like ress and raise spells and you play in my games, then let your PC stay dead. If the players sitting next to you wants his character be raised/ressed then you better shut up and not harass him because he is not playing the game your "right way".

Me? I'm there to run a challenging and hopefully fun game. The only players I don't like are the ones who handle their characters dying badly. Other than that I let the players play however they like within the rule books I choose to use for my campaign.

That includes Raise and Ress spells.

I also allow for stats to be raised during "down time" by training/study. Plus additional skills.

Players can use or ignore my house rules as they wish, to play how they like. Just don't expect everyone at the table to play the same way you do.

So as long as you can stand my style of game, deadly, challenging, heroic, to where you will feel the thrill of saving the poor from starvation and the cold all the way up to slaying the mighty dragon, we'll have a good time.

If you can't handle my generous rules and availability of Raise and Ress spells there are plenty of other DM's who will give you the game you want better than I will.

I would rather people be willing to play in my game and let us try to strike a balance between all of our play styles, but I know that is not always possible, just the ideal.


So as always, we'll DM the way we do, have the players we have, or don't. The game will still go on. Somewhere.

 

[DonTadow]

I don't have rampant resurrections. No D&D game I've ever played in did. That is a caricature of your own invention, and a straw man. Resurrection is part of the world, but expensive, and costly in other ways besides money.

My players are imaginative, and appreciate deep immersive storytelling. They write fiction around their characters, and come with good backstories. But they are able to roll with the punches and run new characters when chance or story dicate a character death.

I am honored to have them at my table, and you would be, too.

And here comes the strawman.
If you don't have rampant resurrections what are you arguing about . If ressurection is in your game as you say it is by the srd, then it is quick and easy.

Part of the discussion is the cheap cost of a resurrection or raise dead. The OP is asking not if resurrection is a bad thing, but if it is too readily available. I'm looking at the cr/treasure charts and 5k for a diamond is not difficult to obtain. That's 1 +2 weapon or armor. Yo u can find that among a hoard of cr 8 or 9 mooks. Given you have a major city in your campaign world, purchasing a diamond isn't too difficult either. I"m not downing your players, but my players would see this as a major flaw in a campaign world. There is no logical reason why any adventurer, noble, king or priest should remain dead after 8th level.

In the fantasy world a lot of things can be hand waved. Dragons, evil gods, flying chickens etc. but the fantasy elements of a world need to make sense to some people.

 

[DonTadow]

Well, I guess I'll have to go back and tell the players in the numerous campaigns I've run that they didn't actually have fun, like they thought; and the game wasn't actually heroic or epic, like they thought; and death wasn't painful or the Raise Dead spells they cast weren't big plot points and poignant moments that drove the plot and moved the adventure.

No, we were all deceived. We didn't have fun. The game didn't work.

Why? Because ... "DonTadow" ... on a message board said so.

That's a good idea. Steer them towards the IRon DM table at Gencon and I'll giv'm a game to remember.

 

[molonel]

And here comes the strawman.

The strawman throughout this discussion between you and I has been yours. Anyone who runs a game unlike yours is playing a video game, or a board game, or a drastrically inferior RPG.

I use resurrection more than you do, obviously. I play by the RAW on availability, but I've actually cut the XP hit and made it more consistent and less painful. Death is still something all of my players do everything in their power to avoid.

If you don't have rampant resurrections what are you arguing about . If ressurection is in your game as you say it is by the srd, then it is quick and easy.

One might easily ask why you're still arguing.

I run a standard D&D game with regards to the availability of Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection. If you consider that rampant, then it's rampant ... to you. If you consider it quick and easy, then according to your personal standards, it is quick and easy.

I do not consider it rampant, quick or easy. Nor do my players.

Part of the discussion is the cheap cost of a resurrection or raise dead. The OP is asking not if resurrection is a bad thing, but if it is too readily available. I'm looking at the cr/treasure charts and 5k for a diamond is not difficult to obtain. That's 1 +2 weapon or armor. Yo u can find that among a hoard of cr 8 or 9 mooks. Given you have a major city in your campaign world, purchasing a diamond isn't too difficult either.

Magical arms and armor are sold or traded at half coast, per the RAW. So your math is off. Using a standard wealth-by-level table, a 10th level character will have 49,000 gp worth of gear and almost all of that will be tied up in three or four key items, generally, with a lesser distribution in potions, 1-use items and possibly scrolls.

If they use a Raise Dead, they must have the body. It must be intact. Death must have occurred within one day per caster level. I've watched characters removed from the game because the party was unable, despite their best efforts, to find a caster within that time or the necessary spell components.

If a party has unlimited money, unlimited time, and unlimited access to spellcasters - which never happens, and the books to do not dictate or encourage in any way - then they would STILL loses an entire level:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm

Cheap and easy?

Whatever.

I"m not downing your players, but my players would see this as a major flaw in a campaign world. There is no logical reason why any adventurer, noble, king or priest should remain dead after 8th level.

You're wrong, and I've watched it happen for logical, non-contrived reasons. You seem to assume that every adventuring group has unlimited cash, unlimited XP to burn and sits on the outskirts of major metropolises with easy access to high-level divine spellcasters.

And I'm the one inventing the straw man?

In the fantasy world a lot of things can be hand waved. Dragons, evil gods, flying chickens etc. but the fantasy elements of a world need to make sense to some people.

And theses mechanics evidently make sense to most people. That's why we use them.

That's a good idea. Steer them towards the IRon DM table at Gencon and I'll giv'm a game to remember.

That's entirely possible.

But they already have a game to remember: mine.

I've been to cons. They're great. I've met some fine DMs. But you could never offer an experience better than mine at a con. That experience is more like a movie, and what I offer them is more like an ongoing series with more depth, more character development and more intensity than you or anyone else can offer at a con.

 

[Lanefan]

This issue is where a rather elegant game mechanic from 1e can really help: the resurrection survival roll.

With this, there's always a chance that any death *is* permanent (or is going to take a lot more effort to undo than simply casting a spell) on a failed roll; meaning players are less likely to take a "re-boot" attitude as the system might crash instead!

This is one mechanic that is trivially easy to add into 3e without any great knock-on effects, though with numbers creep causing stats to more commonly get into the 20's the %-age chances might need to be adjusted downward a bit at the high end.

Lanefan

 

[DonTadow]

The strawman throughout this discussion between you and I has been yours. Anyone who runs a game unlike yours is playing a video game, or a board game, or a drastrically inferior RPG.

I use resurrection more than you do, obviously. I play by the RAW on availability, but I've actually cut the XP hit and made it more consistent and less painful. Death is still something all of my players do everything in their power to avoid.



One might easily ask why you're still arguing.

I run a standard D&D game with regards to the availability of Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection. If you consider that rampant, then it's rampant ... to you. If you consider it quick and easy, then according to your personal standards, it is quick and easy.

I do not consider it rampant, quick or easy. Nor do my players.



Magical arms and armor are sold or traded at half coast, per the RAW. So your math is off. Using a standard wealth-by-level table, a 10th level character will have 49,000 gp worth of gear and almost all of that will be tied up in three or four key items, generally, with a lesser distribution in potions, 1-use items and possibly scrolls.

If they use a Raise Dead, they must have the body. It must be intact. Death must have occurred within one day per caster level. I've watched characters removed from the game because the party was unable, despite their best efforts, to find a caster within that time or the necessary spell components.

If a party has unlimited money, unlimited time, and unlimited access to spellcasters - which never happens, and the books to do not dictate or encourage in any way - then they would STILL loses an entire level:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm

Cheap and easy?

Whatever.



You're wrong, and I've watched it happen for logical, non-contrived reasons. You seem to assume that every adventuring group has unlimited cash, unlimited XP to burn and sits on the outskirts of major metropolises with easy access to high-level divine spellcasters.

And I'm the one inventing the straw man?



And theses mechanics evidently make sense to most people. That's why we use them.



That's entirely possible.

But they already have a game to remember: mine.

I've been to cons. They're great. I've met some fine DMs. But you could never offer an experience better than mine at a con. That experience is more like a movie, and what I offer them is more like an ongoing series with more depth, more character development and more intensity than you or anyone else can offer at a con.

Finally, you stop saying "you're wrong" and start bringing out some stats to back up your stance. You might have a future here on Enworld afterall.

The problem with your logic is assuming that ONE average person is paying the cost. 5k among a party is only 1250 gold a piece. My math is going strickly by RAW and not even calculating a higher end economic system than "half". By Raw, you sell 2 +2 items and kick in a little extra, voila you have an instant resurrection.

Your example is 10th level, yet that is affordable to a party of 5th or 6th level. YOu're talking about a party willing to part with 10 percent of their personal wealth to raise comrade. Again the money thing is easy.

But you bring up time. The typical adventure lasts 2 or 3 days, or at least is statted for this. The minimal level a cleric can cast raise dead is 9th, meaning that you have 5 to 6 days afterwards to raise a character. That's pretty easy, unless your dungeon is in the middle of the ocean. Of course this is SRD. THere are level 1 mummification spells floating around that can preserve the body longer.

Intact is a word that creative PCs get around easily. I've been in parties whre they just stitched parts back up or used other means to make sure the body was hole. If that didn't work out, they could always find a 14th level cleric at the temple, and kick in 20 percent of their wealth.

 

[molonel]

Finally, you stop saying "you're wrong" and start bringing out some stats to back up your stance. You might have a future here on Enworld afterall.

When you dictate how other people's games go, and whether or not they succeed, instead of speaking out of your own experience, you are wrong.

You will continue to be wrong.

And I will continue to point that out.

I find it ironic, however, when someone who joined this forum nearly a year and a half after me deigns to bless me with his approval of whether or not I belong.

The problem with your logic is assuming that ONE average person is paying the cost. 5k among a party is only 1250 gold a piece. My math is going strickly by RAW and not even calculating a higher end economic system than "half". By Raw, you sell 2 +2 items and kick in a little extra, voila you have an instant resurrection.

Your math was demonstrably wrong. I showed that. I have also shown that it is neither quick, nor easy.

You insist that it is. I, and the facts, disagree.

Your example is 10th level, yet that is affordable to a party of 5th or 6th level. YOu're talking about a party willing to part with 10 percent of their personal wealth to raise comrade. Again the money thing is easy.

You also assume liquid wealth just sitting around waiting to be spent. In my experience, and I've been playing since a few months after 3.0 came out, this is not the case. Invested wealth in magic items comprise the majority of that treasure, and anything sold is sold at half cost. By the book.

Possible. But not easy, and not cheap.

And that's only covering ONE character death.

But you bring up time. The typical adventure lasts 2 or 3 days, or at least is statted for this. The minimal level a cleric can cast raise dead is 9th, meaning that you have 5 to 6 days afterwards to raise a character. That's pretty easy, unless your dungeon is in the middle of the ocean. Of course this is SRD. THere are level 1 mummification spells floating around that can preserve the body longer.

The typical adventure lasts two or three days? That's news to me.

Unless your dungeon, or your pyramid, or your underwater adventure, or your overland trek, or your border adventure, or your mountain adventure, or your wilderness adventure, or your desert adventure or anything that sits outside a 50 mile journey from a major metropolitan area.

Which would be most of the campaigns I've played in.

Intact is a word that creative PCs get around easily. I've been in parties whre they just stitched parts back up or used other means to make sure the body was hole. If that didn't work out, they could always find a 14th level cleric at the temple, and kick in 20 percent of their wealth.

I would have thought a creative party would simply cast Make Whole on the body. But that's only if you have the original pieces. Characters that have been eaten, either in whole or in part, aren't so lucky.

I'm glad you find it so easy to have 14th level clerics with a few days journey, no matter where you are in your campaign world, but you need to understand that unlimited PC wealth and unlimited access to casters of that level anywhere in the world is neither recommended by the book, nor the way that most of us play.

 

[DonTadow]

I've been to cons. They're great. I've met some fine DMs. But you could never offer an experience better than mine at a con. That experience is more like a movie, and what I offer them is more like an ongoing series with more depth, more character development and more intensity than you or anyone else can offer at a con.

Maybe, but the television series is rarely ever better than the movie . People remember movies, scenes. They watch television series out of loyalty.

 

[molonel]

Maybe, but the television series is rarely ever better than the movie . People remember movies, scenes. They watch television series out of loyalty.

You obviously haven't been watching the right series, then.