D&D (2024) Is Shield to strong of a spell? Should and how would it be changed for OneD&D?

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Come to think of it, a shield isn't a guaranteed miss either. In any scenario where you would normally be hit 30% or more of the time (meaning your AC isn't more than 15 points over your enemies' attack bonus, barring disadvantage-inflicting stuff), it turns one out of four attacks from a hit to a miss.

If they hit you 30% of the time, that's a roll of 15 or higher to hit. If you use Shield, that becomes a 20 to hit. It doesn't matter how many attacks they make, only successful ones matter - and you just dropped their successful attacks to one-fifth of what they would've otherwise been.

 

[TheSword]

Other than the ogre, your example monsters all have multi-attack, making it much more likely that they'll hit a shield-relevant AC. It also means that if other characters are in reach, they can stop attacking a shielded target and hit someone softer.

Come to think of it, a shield isn't a guaranteed miss either. In any scenario where you would normally be hit 30% or more of the time (meaning your AC isn't more than 15 points over your enemies' attack bonus, barring disadvantage-inflicting stuff), it turns one out of four attacks from a hit to a miss.

Sure, to be clear the ogre and the hill giant were the examples I was using because this strength of AC can come online at level 1.

My point about other creatures was that this is not limited to a low level problem. High level creatures attack bonuses don’t dramatically increase proportionally with CR. That 1st level AC22 character can have substantially higher AC by the time they’re fighting CR 13+ creatures. Multi attack creatures are supposed to be a challenge for a whole party.

 

[TheSword]

At the level I would have been fighting Ogres, the character would have had a base AC of 15 (Studded leather and Dex 17) and with Bladesong the AC would have reached +3 (Int 17)
So the Ogre would have been hitting on rolls from 12 and up.

From the numbers I am looking at on FantasyGrounds a purple worm has +14 to hit so it hits AC 27 on a 13 or better
So, by my calculations the Ogre can only hit on criticals, the Purple Worm has a 40% chance to hit AC 27 (Which is the Shielded AC), the same as the Storm Giant, the Ice devil has a 19% change and the Iron Golem a 35% chance, a +2 to the Bladesinger's int would drop all of these chances by 5%
Against Bladesong (AC 22) the chances are; Purple Worm or Storm Giant (65%) so for about a third of the hits shield will be useful, the rest get through.
My point is that hits will get through and that is it a nontrivial cost. You have a base of 4 slots, I would hesitate to use second level slots and then you are blowing a lot of your Arcane Recovery into shield. A lot depends on the number of combat rounds per working day.

I think that is where a lot of the experience differs. It is not just the number of combats per long rest but the rounds in combat. or the number of rounds before an opportunity of a short rest.

Yep. So a CR 15 purple worm is missing 2/3 of its attacks against a level 1 PC with shield. That’s not a good thing!

If you’re AC was only 15-18 at the point you’re fighting ogres there isn’t a problem using shield. If you have a 15th level character with AC 22 who care. This is a problem when the power is disproportionate and a 1st level character can get the AC of a CR 25 ancient red dragon at level 1, and then buff it by another 5 points retrospectively if needed.

 

[TheSword]

One thing I will say… Shield becomes substantially more controlled if you don’t know what the creature rolled in order to hit!

On VTT where you can generally see the roll result before making the decision then it’s an easy choice to see wether it’s work using the spell or not.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Yep. So a CR 15 purple worm is missing 2/3 of its attacks against a level 1 PC with shield. That’s not a good thing!

If you’re AC was only 15-18 at the point you’re fighting ogres there isn’t a problem using shield. If you have a 15th level character with AC 22 who care. This is a problem when the power is disproportionate and a 1st level character can get the AC of a CR 25 ancient red dragon at level 1, and then buff it by another 5 points retrospectively if needed.

No it is not, the level 2 (Bladesong comes on stream at level 2) character in my example has a shielded AC at level 2 of AC 23 and a Purple Worm would hit that AC 60% pf the time. Hell at level 2 the Ogre is hitting 20% of the time and the Bladesinger has only 3 slots to cast shield or 4 if you include Arcane Recovery and casts no other spell.
I really do not see the issue.
My point is that even at level 12 when I have Dex up to 20 and Int to 18 and thus base AC 18, +Bladesong +4 and Shield +5 to shielded AC of 27 the Purple Worm will hit me 40% of the time, which is quite enough thank you given the resources and effort I have made to have him not hit me.

 

[TheSword]

Ok. I thinking you are missunderstanding me. I refer to unshielded ACs of 22 being buffed to 27 at low levels being a problem.

In your example your AC is only 22 when it gets level 12. Which is a very high level.

The problem is when AC is 22 at level 2 and then shield gets stacked on top! That maybe why you don’t see it as a problem.

It could be even worse… Defense fighting style, ring of protection, haste, cover, races etc etc etc.

Though (and this is beside the point) I’m not sure what resources and effort you refer too in the example of your level 12 bladesinger. You used a bonus action to activate bladesong and then a reaction and a 1st level spell slot. That’s only really a fraction of your resources for a very powerful effect.

 

[Mephista]

No it is not, the level 2 (Bladesong comes on stream at level 2) character in my example has a shielded AC at level 2 of AC 23 and a Purple Worm would hit that AC 60% pf the time. Hell at level 2 the Ogre is hitting 20% of the time and the Bladesinger has only 3 slots to cast shield or 4 if you include Arcane Recovery and casts no other spell.
I really do not see the issue.
My point is that even at level 12 when I have Dex up to 20 and Int to 18 and thus base AC 18, +Bladesong +4 and Shield +5 to shielded AC of 27 the Purple Worm will hit me 40% of the time, which is quite enough thank you given the resources and effort I have made to have him not hit me.

With all due respect, if the only defense you got up as a level 12 Bladesinger is mage armor, shield and subclass abilities, you are missing out. Blur, mirror image, blink, greater invisibility, haste, Tasha's Otherworldly Guise...

 

[UngainlyTitan]

With all due respect, if the only defense you got up as a level 12 Bladesinger is mage armor, shield and subclass abilities, you are missing out. Blur, mirror image, blink, greater invisibility, haste, Tasha's Otherworldly Guise...

I am aware of them and I think that for the purposes of this discussion they are somewhat beside the point because we can introduce wrinkles until the cows come home and never get anywhere.
For the record, I regard Blink as one of the best defensive spells in the game.

Back to shield, my point is that, I do not believe it to be an issue on general play. I have never had an issue hitting players with it or being hit as the player with it and given enough combat rounds the resource usage tells.

It is very powerful, I grant you that, perhaps the most powerful reaction spell in the game, with counterspell its main competition, but I do not believe it is overpowered.

 

[TheSword]

I am aware of them and I think that for the purposes of this discussion they are somewhat beside the point because we can introduce wrinkles until the cows come home and never get anywhere.
For the record, I regard Blink as one of the best defensive spells in the game.

Back to shield, my point is that, I do not believe it to be an issue on general play. I have never had an issue hitting players with it or being hit as the player with it and given enough combat rounds the resource usage tells.

It is very powerful, I grant you that, perhaps the most powerful reaction spell in the game, with counterspell its main competition, but I do not believe it is overpowered.

You call them wrinkled, I call them stacking effects that exacerbate what is already a problem.

The difference between counterspell and shield is that shield works every time, every combat… just as planned

Whereas counterspell is only useful in the 20% of fights that contain a spellcaster and at higher levels requires guessing the level of spell cast. Get that guess too low and there’s only a chance it will work. Guess too high and you’ve just wasted a higher level slot.

 

[gorice]

I think the one good point that's been made in shield's defence is that its utility varies a lot based on how many encounters are being run per day. Against this, I would say: (1) this is true of casters in general, and so not specific to shield; and (2) that players can choose to use shield only when they really need it. This means, not only when they actually get hit, but when they actually get hit and are concerned about the amount of damage they might take. A wizard at full health who gets hit by a mediocre enemy can afford to spend another resource (HP) and save a spell slot for when they really need it.