Is Sunder a Standard Action or just something you can do any time you melee attack?

[RigaMortus2]

I am suggesting that the only time you make a melee attack action is by using a Standard Action, yes. "Melee Attack" is a game term, and it is listed under Standard Acitons. It is seperate and distinct from Multiple Attacks (which references Full Attack Action).

What is a melee attack action? The only actions I see listed are Standard, Move, Full-Round, Free and "Not an Action". The Standard Action allows you to make a melee attack. A Full-Round Action allows you to make more than one attack (provided you have the means to do so). These can be ranged attacks or melee attacks. And under the Sunder text, there is no reference to this "melee attack action" you are talking about. It simply says "melee attack" which a Standard and Full-Round Action allow.

It would work similar to Manyshot, per the core rules. Manyshot requires a standard action. Sunder requires a melee attack action, which is a Standard Action, and is not eligible for Multiple Attacks because of the lack of Footnote 7 and the lack of a text description allowing it as in Grapple.

Sunder requires a melee attack, not a "melee attack action". The Full-Attack Action also allows multiple melee attacks (not multiple melee attack actions). If I can Sunder as a melee attack (not melee attack action), then I can do so once as a Standard Action or multiple times as a Full-Round Action, using Full-attack. I don't need to read the table to be able to figure this out on my own.

It is not irrelevant, merely redundant.

Grapple has both footnote 7 and a text allowance, thus you may use it in iterative attacks.
Trip and Disarm have footnote 7, but no text allowance, so you may use it in iterative attacks.
Sunder has neither footnote 7 nor a text allowance, so you may not use it in iterative attacks.

If you're testing for the robustness of the text and table, assuming that one of them is wrong will show you that they are not robust at all; you assumed the problem into the system. But if you ask, "Assuming the text and the table are both correct, does this work?"

And it turns out that it does work.

• The Sunder description refers to a game term defined as a Standard action pages earlier in the same chapter.

• Table 8-2 defines Sunder as a standard action.

• Footnote 7 allows actions that would normally require a Standard action by virtue of their using a melee attack action to replace iterative attacks gained by various means.

• Sunder lacks footnote 7, and so may not be used in iterative attacks.

• Sunder lacks a text allowance similar to Grapple's that would permit it to be used in iterative attacks.

So if the text and the table can work together without conflict, why assume the problem?

Because no where in the text description does it state Sunder is a melee attack ACTION as you seem to be claiming it is. It is a melee attack, which can be limited to once per round using a Standard Action, or used multiple times using a Full Attack Action. But I've already said this twice above...

 

[Felix]

What is a melee attack action? The only actions I see listed are Standard, Move, Full-Round, Free and "Not an Action".

Page 139.

Standard Actions
--Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attack: <snip>

There are two things that allow special attacks* to be used every time you make a melee attack: specific textual allowance** and Footnote 7. Otherwise "make a melee attack" refers to a defined game term on page 139 that is a Standard action.

* Sunder, Grapple, Trip, Disarm, Bullrush, Overrun, Feint, Throw Splash Weapon, Charge, Mounted Combat, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Two-Weapon Fighting
** p 156: "If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

---

You want to know what a melee attack action is? The section heading is Standard Actions. This implies that all things listed underneath are actions. Otherwise it would say, Standard Action, and tell you all the things you can do with that action. But it does not.

The first sub-heading is Attack. This must refer to one of the actions the heading was talking about. So now we have an Attack Action. The next sub-heading is Melee Attack. So you use an Attack Action for melee, you now have a melee Attack Action. Does this satisfy you?

Sunder requires a melee attack

Which is a specifically defined game term on page 139 and is a Standard Action.

I don't need to read the table to be able to figure this out on my own.

If you do not use the table, you are quite right. Of the two available interpretations, yours and mine, they are both reasonable considering only the text. However, when the table is introduced, your reading requires that the table is mistaken while mine does not.

You must assume the table is wrong for your reading to work. If there is no way to reconcile the text with the table, then the text wins out and you are correct. This is not the case, however; the text and the table are reconcileable. This possibility, with the core being in agreement with itself, is then the rule as it is written.

no where in the text description does it state Sunder is a melee attack ACTION

You're right: under Sunder it never does say "melee attack action". It does refers to a defined game term which is one of the Attack Actions. Specifically a melee Attack Action.

But I've already said this twice above...

And me thrice.

You do know that I agree that Sundering should be allowed in a Full Attack. I just feel that the best way about it is to make it explicit and scribble in a "7" on table 8-2. That's all it takes. To do it otherwise is to assume that the core rules are wrong when you don't have to make that assumption at all. There's no benefit to it, and ultimately easier to write a "7".

It's either a 7, or you assume the core rules are wrong. Which suits you?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Because no where in the text description does it state Sunder is a melee attack ACTION as you seem to be claiming it is. It is a melee attack, which can be limited to once per round using a Standard Action, or used multiple times using a Full Attack Action. But I've already said this twice above...

The text of the Sunder action states that you can use a melee attack. But if you are not taking the Sunder action (a standard action that does not carry footnote 7, meaning it cannot be used once in an Attack or Charge action, one or more times in a Full Attack action, or as an AoO), how is this text relevant?

If you are taking the Sunder standard action, what can you do? You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to damage an opponent's weapon or shield.

If you aren't taking the Sunder standard action, what can you do? Any number of things, as long as it isn't using a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to damage an opponent's weapon or shield...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Page 139.

Standard Actions
--Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attack: <snip>

Which is true - if you are taking the standard action, Attack, which allows you to make a single attack, then making an attack is a standard action. In the context in which it is located, the statement "Making an attack is a standard action" is true. But outside of that context, it is not always accurate.

If you are taking the full round action Charge, or the full round action Full Attack, making an attack is part of a full round action.

If an AoO is provoked, making an attack is not an action at all.

In the Player's Handbook, there are essentially five ways one can make a melee attack.

1. The Attack action, a standard action allowing a single melee (or ranged, or unarmed) attack.
2. The Charge action, a full round action allowing a single melee attack following a special move.
3. The Full Attack action, a full round action allowing one or more melee (or ranged, or unarmed) attacks.
4. The Attack of Opportunity, allowing a single melee attack against an opponent who performs certain actions in a threatened square, or leaves a threatened square.
5. The Sunder action, a standard action allowing a single melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon against an opponent's weapon or shield.

'Melee Attack' is not an action; it is something an action (or AoO) allows. Sometimes, it is the entirety of what that action allows; nevertheless, the two concepts are separate.

-Hyp.

 

[TYPO5478]

Trip and Disarm have footnote 7, but no text allowance, so you may use it in iterative attacks.

Not true. Both Disarm and Trip are discribed as Melee Attacks, which, as you point out, the rules stipulate take a Standard Action. In this case, the table and the text actually disagree, and the Errata precedent requires that we consider the table incorrect.

Let us use your test: "Assuming the text and the table are both correct, does this work?"

• The Trip and Disarm descriptions refer to a game term defined as a Standard action pages earlier in the same chapter.

• Table 8-2 defines both Trip and Disarm as not being standard actions.

At this point, the text and table conflict. Assuming the text to be correct (and we must, since no corrigenda have been issued to correct it), the table is either wrong about Trip and Disarm or it is wrong about Sunder. The only alternative assumption that we can make is that the phrase "melee attack" does not have the same meaning in every context.

In which case, how do we determine what exactly that phrase means?

Take for example the term "white house." Now, it could apply to the President's abode at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington DC. Further, via metonymy, it may refer to the President himself or his administration as a whole. Or it could simply mean a house, any house, that happens to be painted white. Similarly, the construction "melee attack" may specifically reference the game term (which is defined as a Standard Action), or it could mean "an attack made during melee combat."

Tune in next week when I list the numerous definitions of "is".

 

[TYPO5478]

We get a 'sneak attack only works once a round, right?' question every other week, despite the fact that it souldn't really be any clearer that it works on any attack that qualifies, so I don't buy the 'we're debating it so it must not be clear' line. Besides, its begging the question.

There's a difference between a question and a debate. While I don't necessarily agree that I begged the question, even if I did, the alternative is saying, "I'm right and you're wrong because I say so!" Which I'm pretty sure is prohibited by forum rules.

You're saying that they indented sunder to be an attack option. Does that mean that you're admitting that as written it actually isn't?

Of course it's an attack option. That's why it's listed under the Special Attacks section. I don't think anyone is actually trying to say that it isn't. The question we're debating is what kind of option it is: Standard Action or not.

Felix, I have to agree with Hyp that Standard Actions allow Melee Attacks (among other things), but not all Melee Attacks are Standard Actions. Rectangles and squares, my friend.