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D&D 4E Is the OGL the reason for WOTC's secrecy about 4E?

Hobo said:
If you want to start up another thread specifically to discuss this in General Discussion, I'd certainly be interested. I think it's an interesting topic.

Obviously, I've already got a pretty strong opinion based on several years of using d20 for a lot of different things, though.

I would really want to discuss this but my HPs are low right now. Perhaps after I rise a level or two :)
 

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Hobo said:
I thought you were going to say that it doesn't do something well, not that it's not technically 4e. A certain genre or playstyle that it doesn't do well.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am asking for you to tell me specifically what certain style d20 can't do. 'Coz I've tried an awful lot of styles in d20 and done them all well (IMO).
Can d20 be used to emulate the play of a game like The Dying Earth, in which action resolution is by way of a series of rerolls, giving the player a high degree of control over which conflicts are resolved succesfully for his or her PC, and which not?
 

pemerton said:
Can d20 be used to emulate the play of a game like The Dying Earth, in which action resolution is by way of a series of rerolls, giving the player a high degree of control over which conflicts are resolved succesfully for his or her PC, and which not?

It can't emulate those mechanics, but it CAN be used to run games in Vance's world, with minor tweaking. The DERPG (which I've written far, BTW) chose one model for the world; there are others.
 

Lizard said:
It can't emulate those mechanics, but it CAN be used to run games in Vance's world, with minor tweaking. The DERPG (which I've written far, BTW) chose one model for the world; there are others.
I've got no doubt that there may be other ways of doing Vance's world. But doesn't this show that d20 is limited in the range of play experiences that it can deliver. After all, there is more to a play experience than just genre.

More controversially, it may be that a certain sort of (non-d20) mechanics better delivers a particular genre experience. I think this is at least plausible in the case of The Dying Earth. After all, there is more to a genre experience then just the tropes one encounters in the gameworld. Hence the unsatisfactoriness of ICE's use of Rolemaster as the engine for MERP.
 

Hobo said:
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am asking for you to tell me specifically what certain style d20 can't do. 'Coz I've tried an awful lot of styles in d20 and done them all well (IMO).

I guess it depends on what you mean by d20.

If d20 means the basic mechanic of "roll d20, add number, compare to target," then sure, it can do most stuff tolerably well, at least within the bounds of traditional RPGs. I happen to think a less volatile mechanic (bell curve instead of straight line) is preferable, but it's not a big deal.

If d20 means all the key concepts of the SRD--class and level; Strength, Dexterity, and so forth; base attack bonuses; Fort, Ref, and Will saves; experience tables; skill ranks; hit points and Hit Dice--then I can think of a whole lot of stuff d20 doesn't do very well. Each of the things I just listed may not fit into a given game.

For instance, the advancement mechanic is built to tie breadth (number of mechanical options characters have) and depth (power level of a character's most powerful option) together. You can't gain breadth without also gaining depth. What this means is that the SRD mandates a steady advancement from "wussy" to "godlike." Characters in the late game are vastly more powerful than characters in the early game, to the point where a 20th-level character can literally take on armies of 1st-level characters under certain circumstances.

You can modify the system so this isn't the case (see E6, for example), but to do so you have to build your own breadth-based advancement mechanic and throw away everything in the SRD past level 6 (or wherever you set your depth limit). And the result is not going to be very compatible with other d20 systems.

Likewise, the six ability scores as written mean that characters' basic abilities are defined in very specific ways. Those ways may not make sense in many games. For instance, if you're making a game where everyone is playing a caster, it's silly to put Strength on a level with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma; it'll be like Charisma was in 2E, the universal dump stat. You'd be better off making it a feat or something.

On the other hand, you might want to break out some of the mental stats into more categories. A mage-dominated game would likely put tremendous emphasis on strength of will, which means Wisdom will be too good. So you'd break it into Willpower and Perception, or something (it never made any sense to merge those into a single stat anyhow; the only reason they did it in 3E was that they inherited those stats from previous editions and they had to find somewhere to put "perceptiveness"). Again, you've just made your system that much less compatible with other d20 systems.

Moreover, d20 is designed for combat-heavy adventure games. If you want a game with lots of intrigue and subtle politics, and not so much hacking, d20 does not have what you need. The social mechanics in the SRD are, frankly, wretched. You can build your own, to be sure, and dump most of the d20 combat mechanics which will only bog your game down, but at that point why are you even calling it d20? Yet again, not compatible.

pemerton said:
After all, there is more to a play experience than just genre.

Exactly. You can shoehorn the SRD into any setting, but what you typically end up with is "D&D in space/the Wild West/cyberpunk/spy thrillers/whatever." If you're fine with playing D&D all the time, great. But if you want a game that plays differently, you need different mechanics.
 
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Daasul, that's quite an an insightful post. I especially like what you wrote about how d20 ties depth to breadth. I often toy with making a d20 version of RuneQuest/Glorantha (the game I left for 3E), and it's difficult because the BRP system that RuneQuest uses rewards being a generalist past a point, while D20 is all specialization, all the time.

Ken
 

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