Is the Paladin class poorly designed?

[Nail]

Which is a fine build. Sure, you don't need to be Dragonborn at this point, ....

...that sticks in my craw a little bit. The whole point of the dragonborn is the breath weapon => and only *some* class builds care about the breath weapon stats.

..but that's another topic.

 

[Spatula]

I also think the cleric, warlock, and ranger need to be redesigned as well. They all share the same design problem IMO.

The ranger doesn't have the same issue, as the majority of the class' powers are dual-use (i.e. they work for both melee & ranged builds).

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Besides being a primary attack stat, Strength offers:

• Channel Divinity: Divine Strength <okay, but not great>
• Better basic melee attacks <for OAs>
• No secondary effects from Encounter, Daily, Utility, or PP powers.

Gees, is that a short list.

You skipped...
-STR based skill exploits.
-Greater carrying capacity.
-Ability to use thrown weapons effectively.
-Better chance to Grab or Escape from Grab

DS

 

[Nahat Anoj]

@ Jonathan Moyer: Agreed, but.....they won't be changed. Divine Power will come out, which I'm confident will have new Paladin builds and new Paladin powers...but they won't be able to change the structural problems with the Paladin.

Of course, 4.5e could change the Paladin. Is it too early to talk about 4.5e? It's only 2 years away......

I know it probably won't be changed officially, which is why I've done it unofficially. I wouldn't mind a 4.5 that does that changing, though. I think with DDI it's easier than it was in previous years - people with DDI don't have to get all the books again to be "current."

As an aside but related to this, I hope 5e is completely electronic, for this reason. Sure, you have to subscribe, but when "patches" are released you can get them updated automatically. No having to sift through the website or tons of different book printings. Indeed, when a new edition comes out, you wouldn't even need to get new books - it would all be updated online.

The ranger doesn't have the same issue, as the majority of the class' powers are dual-use (i.e. they work for both melee & ranged builds).

Well, I think rangers, paladins, warlocks, and clerics play well enough as-is. The primary reason for me is that it's a general class theme issue. IMO, classes should have one signature ability that unites the class and gives it a clear concept. Wizards are smart, fighters are strong, etc. To me, the ranger feels like two classes mashed into one.

There are other reasons, too. One primary attack stat for rangers (and all other classes) reinforces the theme that humans can be good in any class they choose. Another is that it makes character creation much more straightforward but loses no tactical complexity in play. IMO, this is a boon to both veterans and newbies who just want to get on with the game.

The real problem IMO with Dex-primary rangers is that if the ranger is Dex primary, not only do they have one attack stat to increase, they also have great AC and Ref. Thus they are incredibly efficient when it comes to building character, doing lots of damage quite cheaply. It would be like a rogue but with much less limitations in the weapons it can use. So I think, to keep things in line with rogues, Dex primary rangers will need some kind of incentive to use low damage weapons over big damage ones (eg, dual wielding bastard swords).

 

[Kaffis]

The thing is currently, we mainly have martial feats available, and getting to the feat requirements means spreading your points even more. A paladin, especially one with no shield, will end up with a rather poor reflex save. And a lot of monsters hit on your reflex. A defender's job is not just to keep monsters focused on him and take damage in place of the rest of the party. He needs to be able to soak and/or avoid the damage better as well. Good reflex defense counts.

The paladin in my party would soak damage immensely well even if he weren't a shield-toting plate wearer. Lots of surges + lay on hands = more than enough hit points to keep up with the pace the rest of the party sets even if he was eating the majority of attacks against him. Doesn't hurt that he's a dragonborn for the bonus to surge value, either.

The beautiful thing about paladins is that what they *can* lack in mark potency (again, if it's not a CHA-heavy build), they make up for in spades with Lay Hands. It's acknowledged that they're a big weaker in the marking department, that's why they get Lay Hands as a vessel to spread their surges to OTHERS. Fighters have to mark and eat the hits themselves to make use of their high number of surges. Paladins can spread their surges around to anybody that gets hit because their marks are a bit more readily or successfully ignored and they're not as sticky. It works, and works admirably, IME.

Paladins simply have to not be afraid to reach out and touch someone. During or after, that's part of how they defend. In fact, it could be argued that the paladin's better defenses (high will defense and more easily obtained plate and shield) actually *encourage* things to take a shot at his friends more often than if they were marked by a fighter because the paladin's harder to hit than even the -2 penalty ally sometimes. So the Lay Hands is a big part of that.

That, and my paladin player really gets a kick out of getting to tell me big numbers for his AC and such. Makes him feel unstoppable when stuff whiffs him a bunch.

 

[Stalker0]

Strength Paladins don't have a fancy defend, they have the -2 mark and a bit of damage.

But they do a lot of damage on their own. Holy Strike is a strong damaging at will, valiant strike is great for crowds. Divine Strength gives you even more damage and many strength paladin attacks are high damage.

Strength paladins are kind of striker/leader more than defender/leaders imo.

 

[Danceofmasks]

with point #3. To get the big 'broken' boom, you are spending a standard action to use Martyrs retribution (if you are 5th, your highest daily), a healing surge, a minor for Righteous Rage of Tempus (FRPG). It cost a feat to be able to do this with any weapon, not to mention the waraxe proficiency feat which is valuable anyway, and if the daily misses, the feat power is lost along with your channel divinity for that encounter. For all that, it should be a big boom.

To that, I have to ask ... who else gets to decide to even attempt a 67 or so damage attack?
> 100 damage as you hit paragon (and have a vicious +3 waraxe)

 

[shadowoflameth]

To that, I have to ask ... who else gets to decide to even attempt a 67 or so damage attack?
> 100 damage as you hit paragon (and have a vicious +3 waraxe)

The cleric does if he multis into warlock, rogue or ranger. not to mention a dwarf warlord with the right feats. I could go on.

 

[shadowoflameth]

BTW if he's got a +3 anything when he's 5th level something unbalancing is happening anyway.

 

[Jack99]

I'm really wondering why you couldn't have a high Str Dragonborn, use Str for your breath, then multiclass as a fighter. Doesn't "paladin who is big and muscular and smacks people around" sound like a paladin multi'd with Fighter? Multiclassing is not what it used to be, but it's still a useful tool for shading some characters into concepts not accounted for by the class archetype.

It is indeed one of the ways to go, if you are making a str-based paladin.