D&D 5E Is trafficking in soul coins ostensibly evil?

[Paul Farquhar]

I reread Tyrants of the Nine Hells. You can sometimes legally wiggle out of the contract via an infernal lawyer.

Eg Wyll was 17 when je signed his soul away. Not legally binding in my country so the Devil would be hoping Wyll doesn't know that.

Game has options on how to get out anyway.

None of which was relevant to Wyll's decision making process when he signed the pact. He used his very limited knowledge and experience to make what seemed to be the best call at the time. Whether it might be possible to find a way out of the pact, whether the long term consequences would be better or worse are all irrelevant. He did not have access to that information. Nor did he change as a consequence of his decision. He did not go from helping little old ladies across the road to kicking kittens because some great alignment switch had been flicked.

 

[Stalker0]

None of which was relevant to Wyll's decision making process when he signed the pact. He used his very limited knowledge and experience to make what seemed to be the best call at the time.

Which I have never really understood. In dnd you KNOW heaven and hell exists, the gods are real, and when you see the literal devil right there....yep hell is real.

Why would you damn your IMMORTAL soul just to help save some people's lives? Lives....are short little things compared to the eternity of a soul. What is the saving of a life (that is going to die some day anyway) really worth when you are torturing your own soul for all of time.

You would have to be extremely ignorant in dnd and really not believe in hell somehow to make that kind of deal imo.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Why would you damn your IMMORTAL soul just to help save some people's lives?

I can't think of anything more heroic than being willing to sacrifice your soul for others. It's the most valuable thing you possess. Some people don't do good because they expect to be rewarded in the afterlife. That's not good, it's mercenary.

 

[Zardnaar]

I can't think of anything more heroic than being willing to sacrifice your soul for others. It's the most valuable thing you possess. Some people don't do good because they expect to be rewarded in the afterlife. That's not good, it's mercenary.

Well you're contributing to cosmic evil doing it.

Your fate is probably become a devil. You will repeat the process of corruption.

You might save a few thousand lives only to eventually be responsible for the deaths of millions. Or corrupted other souls any of which could go on to achieve greater evil than you.

Either way the morally correct choice is death in the traditional D&D multiverse.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Well you're contributing to cosmic evil doing it.

Your fate is probably become a devil. You will repeat the process of corruption.

You might save a few thousand lives only to eventually be responsible for the deaths of millions. Or corrupted other souls any of which could go on to achieve greater evil than you.

That information isn't available to Wyll, and actually, he is offered a pretty good deal (accepting that he is willing to face eternal torment) because Zariel also want's the Cult of the Dragon defeated.

Either way the morally correct choice is death in the traditional D&D multiverse.

Traditional D&D morality is childish, not going beyond the concept of doing the right thing because you will personally benefit, and if you don't you will be punished. That's why BG3 dropped it. In order to tell a sophisticated story you can't be bound by such a reductionist morality.

 

[Zardnaar]

That information isn't available to Wyll, and actually, he is offered a pretty good deal (accepting that he is willing to face eternal torment) because Zariel also want's the Cult of the Dragon defeated.

Traditional D&D morality is childish, not going beyond the concept of doing the right thing because you will personally benefit, and if you don't you will be punished. That's why BG3 dropped it. In order to tell a sophisticated story you can't be bound by such a reductionist morality.

Well temporary mortal existence vs eternity?

And if you go to hell you're either fuel or become what you hate? And would repeat the cycle.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It would be if you lied all the time and not only did your god not punish you, they continue to give you their divine juice.

That's not how Paladins work in 5e.

This isn't the real world, this is dnd.... where good and evil aren't just ethical discussion points, they are literal forces in the world empowered by actual gods and devils.

Gods don't cause Good in D&D. At best they communicate it to mortals.

The soul is already enslaved to hell, whether its in a tiny coin or a fiery hell pit.... the soul is already damned.

No, it isn't!

Because each soul coin has a unique soul trapped within it, each has a story. A creature might have been imprisoned as a result of defaulting on a deal, while another might be the victim of a night hag's curse. [Emphasis added.]

Someone can become bound to a soul coin without being evil.

Sure you could break the soul out of the coin....and then they just go to hell. The soul is literally "damned", destined to suffer eternal torture. You can't change that.

Again, no, that is not always true:

Freeing a Soul. Casting a spell that removes a curse on a soul coin frees the soul trapped within it, as does expending all of the coin's charges. The coin itself rusts from within and is destroyed once the soul is released. A freed soul travels to the realm of the god it served or the outer plane most closely tied to its alignment (DM's choice). The souls of lawful evil creatures released from soul coins typically emerge from the River Styx as lemure devils.

A soul can also be freed by destroying the coin that contains it. A soul coin has AC 19, 1 hit point for each charge it has remaining, and immunity to all damage except that which is dealt by a hellfire weapon (BGA, page 223) or an infernal war machine's furnace (BGA, page 217).

Freeing a soul from a soul coin is considered a good act, even if the soul belongs to an evil creature.

The text explicitly refers to ways that a person's soul could be bound to a soul coin without any evildoing on their part. It is also, explicitly, a good act to free a soul from a soul coin. Finally, the text makes no requirements here that the mortal's soul was evil

So is possessing hte coin good, absolutely not. But is it truly evil in the context of dnd....eh I think a neutral character could be justified and going "hey it is what it is"

No. Non-Evil creatures are explicitly burdened simply by possessing the coins:

An evil creature can carry as many soul coins as it wishes (up to its maximum weight allowance). A nonevil creature can carry a number of soul coins equal to or less than its Constitution modifier without penalty. A non-evil creature carrying a number of soul coins greater than its Constitution modifier has disadvantage on its attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.

It is clearly a literal weight on the soul to merely possess such coins if one isn't evil. To intentionally traffic in them must surely be worse!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Note that I said slave labor. The laws of war do not permit enslavement of POWs. There are restrictive rules about what kinds of labor POWs may be asked to perform, and their working conditions must be up to a certain minimum standard that is WELL above slavery conditions.

Being a POW is definitely a form of "soft" slavery at least, as it is a form of imprisonment.

 

[Stalker0]

I can't think of anything more heroic than being willing to sacrifice your soul for others. It's the most valuable thing you possess. Some people don't do good because they expect to be rewarded in the afterlife. That's not good, it's mercenary.

If i stubbed my toe for a bit and was like “damn that really hurts” and you came along and said “I am going to go and kill myself to fix your toe”

Would we say that’s heroic or the height of insanity?

Life is so temporary, a soul is forever.

 

[Stalker0]

That's not how Paladins work in 5e.


Gods don't cause Good in D&D. At best they communicate it to mortals.


No, it isn't!


Someone can become bound to a soul coin without being evil.


Again, no, that is not always true:


The text explicitly refers to ways that a person's soul could be bound to a soul coin without any evildoing on their part. It is also, explicitly, a good act to free a soul from a soul coin. Finally, the text makes no requirements here that the mortal's soul was evil


No. Non-Evil creatures are explicitly burdened simply by possessing the coins:

It is clearly a literal weight on the soul to merely possess such coins if one isn't evil. To intentionally traffic in them must surely be worse!

Congratulations, this has convinced me. I am switching sides, possessing the coins would be evil