D&D 5E It's the Sorcerer!

[Juriel]

Disagree. Why make the sorcerer, which uses similar spells, have to learn a brand new way of managing spells, when compared to every other casting class?

Why make the player learn two systems? Currently, Sorcerer uses slots AND points, which surely is harder than just using one of those.

 

[Vael]

Why make the player learn two systems? Currently, Sorcerer uses slots AND points, which surely is harder than just using one of those.

Spell slots are a common system used by every casting class. Your argument only works for a first time player. Who can rely on help from someone playing the cleric, or the ranger, or the wizard, because they all use spell slots in the same way.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

It's a bit disingenuous to argue that anyone is likely to be confused by spell points, which are not only nearly ubiquitous in video games and other media, but are also almost functionally identical to ki points, which are already in the game.

Anyway, learning the system is only half the issue. Actually managing it is the other half. And contrary to Bacon Bits's argument, it's hard for me to see how spell points are not strictly simpler to deal with in terms of bookkeeping. They basically mean a level 20 character has one number to track instead of nine.

Anyway, spell points aren't the only alternative to spell slots. The 5e warlock, for example, is a fairly elegant alternative, which I like a lot. There are also any number of even more radically different magic systems that could be used, and HAVE been used with varying degrees of success in 3.x and elsewhere. But giving all magic users except warlocks (6 out of 11 PHB classes) the same spell slot system feels like the same kind of homogeneity that made 4e's initial AEDU system so frustrating to many people. I'd argue that it's worse, because while AEDU's justification was gameplay effectiveness, the primary justification for spell slots is "tradition." They don't even make narrative sense anymore, now that nobody is actually preparing spell slots in advance.

 

[MoonSong]

Narratively, the Wizard is still that "rigid" guy, but the new vancian mechanics make it really flexible. As [MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] brilliantly enlightened us some time ago, we shouldn't see the Wizard only as a 3e vancian Wizard with the added flexibility that prepared spells need not be 1-to-1 mapped into slots. Instead, we can think of it as a 3e Sorcerer who instead of casting from a fixed known spells list, she casts from the prepared spells list i.e. a list she can change on next day. That means e.g. a 20th level Wizard has a list of 20+Int spells list to cast from every day (and can change it next day - limited to her known spells which are in the 40-range), while the 20th level Sorcerer has a 15 spells list (and cannot change, except swap some known spells when levelling up). Number of base slots is identical. So the Sorcerer additional abilities (e.g. going beyond the daily limits) should better be good or she'll clearly lose the comparison. Because in 3e the Wizard knew many more spells and got them a level earlier, while the Sorcerer had 30-50% more spells per day and huge casting flexibility, but in 5e the Wizard is actually more flexible before counting the Sorcerer's special abilities.

But it is clearly there in the table, first level one extra cantrip, second level one extra first level slot, third level the extra slot becomes second level plus "Metamagic", fourth level the ability to join slots (or separate them into smaller slots for maximum casting) and burn them for metamagic, at this point you are using mana/spell points in all but name. The later levels are the hassle I'm beginning to think sorcerer is going to be a 17-18 level career and we will be better off taking the first level in bard and then a second or third level down the line at some point for some more buffs and some healing spells. If wizard -which still doesn't comes close to cover the sorcerer, the main requisite to be a sorcerer is not only tactical flexibility, but also never preparing slots nor carrying a spellbook except to cheat people- is flexible in the spells he can cast, the sorcerer is flexible in the slots she can cast with, have a first level spell you need to cast right now but that doesn't scale and only a second or third level slot? wizard wastes the slot, sorcerer divides the slot and sometimes adds a little spin to the spell being cast. If anything I'm of the idea that spell points are more or less equivalent to the same value in slots + 50% if only for the added flexibility. By 6th level a sorcerer should be able to keep throwing fireballs all day, and not only the three times a wizard could.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Not sure why people are arguing that the sorcerer would be better if it has spell points. It does. Well, they're called sorcery points but the same thing. And it's super easy to use them if that's the style you want.

For example (and this is alpha material, so the actual values may change but the mechanic probably won't), your font of magic allows you to swap spells slots for points:

Level 1 spells: 2 points
level 2: 3 pts
level 3: 5 pts
level 4: 6 pts
level 5: 7 pts

A 10th level sorcerer has 7 points, plus slots of: 4/3/3/3/2

Total points: 71
base 7+
level 1 spells: 8
level 2: 9
level 3: 15
level 4: 18
level 5: 14


So you could use those points as you cast appropriate level spells, up to level 5 spells (the highest spell level you can casts for your level).

So the rule is already there, if all you want is a spell point sorcerer. Or if you like the 3e sorcerer better, you can stick with the default spells per level mechanic. All it does is give options to the player to use whatever style they want, and I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Not sure why people are arguing that the sorcerer would be better if it has spell points. It does. Well, they're called sorcery points but the same thing. And it's super easy to use them if that's the style you want.

For example (and this is alpha material, so the actual values may change but the mechanic probably won't), your font of magic allows you to swap spells slots for points:

Level 1 spells: 2 points
level 2: 3 pts
level 3: 5 pts
level 4: 6 pts
level 5: 7 pts

A 10th level sorcerer has 7 points, plus slots of: 4/3/3/3/2

Total points: 71
base 7+
level 1 spells: 8
level 2: 9
level 3: 15
level 4: 18
level 5: 14


So you could use those points as you cast appropriate level spells, up to level 5 spells (the highest spell level you can casts for your level).

So the rule is already there, if all you want is a spell point sorcerer. Or if you like the 3e sorcerer better, you can stick with the default spells per level mechanic. All it does is give options to the player to use whatever style they want, and I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

The problem is that in the alpha, converting spell slots back to sorcery points gives you fewer points.

Like, it costs two points for a level 1 spell, but dropping a level 1 slot only gives you one point.

 

[Li Shenron]

But it is clearly there in the table, first level one extra cantrip, second level one extra first level slot, third level the extra slot becomes second level plus "Metamagic", fourth level the ability to join slots (or separate them into smaller slots for maximum casting) and burn them for metamagic, at this point you are using mana/spell points in all but name. The later levels are the hassle I'm beginning to think sorcerer is going to be a 17-18 level career and we will be better off taking the first level in bard and then a second or third level down the line at some point for some more buffs and some healing spells. If wizard -which still doesn't comes close to cover the sorcerer, the main requisite to be a sorcerer is not only tactical flexibility, but also never preparing slots nor carrying a spellbook except to cheat people- is flexible in the spells he can cast, the sorcerer is flexible in the slots she can cast with, have a first level spell you need to cast right now but that doesn't scale and only a second or third level slot? wizard wastes the slot, sorcerer divides the slot and sometimes adds a little spin to the spell being cast. If anything I'm of the idea that spell points are more or less equivalent to the same value in slots + 50% if only for the added flexibility. By 6th level a sorcerer should be able to keep throwing fireballs all day, and not only the three times a wizard could.

I'm not sure what table you're looking at, but in the PHB preview I can see the extra cantrip (which is a small benefit), but not any extra slots.

I don't know how neither metamagic nor sorcery points work yet, which is why I said that they (and the other sorcerer's special abilities) should better be good, otherwise the Sorcerer has the same number of spells per day as a Wizard (maybe some of her special abilities allows her cast beyond the daily slots, but I have no idea) but much fewer spells known. She's stuck with 15 while the Wizard will have 3 times at least, and she doesn't even learn any new spell after level 17th (although maybe "Font of Magic" is the ability to swap some known spells... who knows maybe swap one known spell during a long rest?).

I don't think what you describe as the ability to split slots is a big deal. And of course it's possible to always cast a spell with a higher level slot even if it doesn't scale (you just get no scaling benefit), but in general there are (1) plenty of scaling spells and (2) a lot of at-will magic in 5e, so because of these I don't expect this optimization alone to make a major difference.

Rather, I would expect those sorcery points to be usable to augment your spells (i.e. activate your chosen metamagic abilities), and furthermore I expect these points to recharge with short rests, at least partially. Now that would probably make the Sorcerer worth even with so few known spells.

 

[Bacon Bits]

It's a bit disingenuous to argue that anyone is likely to be confused by spell points, which are not only nearly ubiquitous in video games and other media, but are also almost functionally identical to ki points, which are already in the game.

It's not that they're a complicated concept. They're complicated to maintain. On a computer, the math is done for you, the pool value is maintained for you.

It's just that they're error-prone. So are hit points, honestly, but there isn't much we can do about those.

 

[MoonSong]

I'm not sure what table you're looking at, but in the PHB preview I can see the extra cantrip (which is a small benefit), but not any extra slots.

I don't know how neither metamagic nor sorcery points work yet, which is why I said that they (and the other sorcerer's special abilities) should better be good, otherwise the Sorcerer has the same number of spells per day as a Wizard (maybe some of her special abilities allows her cast beyond the daily slots, but I have no idea) but much fewer spells known. She's stuck with 15 while the Wizard will have 3 times at least, and she doesn't even learn any new spell after level 17th (although maybe "Font of Magic" is the ability to swap some known spells... who knows maybe swap one known spell during a long rest?).

I don't think what you describe as the ability to split slots is a big deal. And of course it's possible to always cast a spell with a higher level slot even if it doesn't scale (you just get no scaling benefit), but in general there are (1) plenty of scaling spells and (2) a lot of at-will magic in 5e, so because of these I don't expect this optimization alone to make a major difference.

Rather, I would expect those sorcery points to be usable to augment your spells (i.e. activate your chosen metamagic abilities), and furthermore I expect these points to recharge with short rests, at least partially. Now that would probably make the Sorcerer worth even with so few known spells.

[MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] has explained it up there, by default sorcery points can be used to create more spell slots, using that math, the two points at second level net you an extra spell slot of first level, then you can also use them to power up metamagic, and splitting slots can be good when you would waste extra damage. But yes, as I was telling it seems sorcerer is only going to be worth it up to 17th-18th level, then rather fill up with bard levels for more spells known.

 

[Sacrosanct]

But yes, as I was telling it seems sorcerer is only going to be worth it up to 17th-18th level, then rather fill up with bard levels for more spells known.

I'm sorry, and this isn't directed at you personally, but phrases like this make me do a big double take

I mean, I've been playing D&D for almost 35 years, and the highest level PC I ever had was 16th level. 99.99% of my gaming is with PCs from level 1 to 10 or 11. So when I hear "only good to 17th-18th level', it's a shock to my sensibilities