jgbrowning, Rystil Arden, and Hypersmurf talk amongst themselves

[Kelleris]

Sure! Its not often that anyone on ENWorld past the person to whom I am directly posting acknowledges my existence

So you think if I keep goading you I'll get my name up in lights too?

 

[Rystil Arden]

So you think if I keep goading you I'll get my name up in lights too?

Hey, maybe. Who knows? Worth a shot, right?

 

[jgbrowning]

Second example:
Heat Metal
Transmutation [Fire]
Target: Metal equipment of one creature per two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

I cast Heat Metal on the metal equipment of three creatures, who are standing in a triangle, twenty feet apart from each other. On his action, one of the creatures moves twenty feet further away from his friends.

The three creatures no longer satisfy the "no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart" condition of the target line, which means that the metal equipment each of them carries is no longer a valid target for a Heat Metal spell aimed at all three.

What happens to the spell?

1. Nothing. It's already in effect - the relative positions of the creatures is no longer important.
2. The equipment of the creature who moved is no longer affected, but the equipment of the other two continues to heat up as normal.
2a. The spell is suppressed on the equipment of the creature who moved, but if he returns within 30 feet of the others, he'll suffer the normal effects.
3. The spell terminates.
3b. The spell is suppressed, but if the creature returns, the equipment of all three will be affected again.

-Hyp.

1.

But it doesn't matter in the case of a type change—which is what we're talking about. If the spell only effected [plants] and one of the [plants] changed type into an [animal] the creature is no longer affected.

That's why shillelagh doesn't work on a club that's been transformed into a longsword. The the equivelent of a type change.

joe b.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The polymorph explictely states a type change occurs, said spell doesn't work on that type, so spell doesn't work. I don't really see a problem.

Where do you get "spell doesn't work on that type" from?

Dominate Person can't target a giant. But if it's already in effect on a giant, where does it say it doesn't work?

-Hyp.

 

[Rystil Arden]

To parallel Smurf's example, imagine a spell that infects any humanoid with the deadly disease Demon Chills. The disease itself affects any type, but this spell only infects humanoids. Now if I've already been hit by this spell, can I just turn into a Giant and be cured? Its like in the old Final Fantasies when you could just equip the Ribbon and make all the status ailments go away without paying for the cure items.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But it doesn't matter in the case of a type change—which is what we're talking about.

Cite your source.

How does "The creeature's type changes" interact differently with the Target line of a spell than "The weapon gains an enhancement bonus"?

What's so special about a type change, compared to any other sort of Target specification?

If I cast Levitate on a willing creature, lift him into the air, and then he decides he's not willing any more, does the spell end?

If I cast Bless, affecting all my allies, and one of them decides to betray me, does he retain the bonuses for the duration of the spell?

-Hyp.

 

[jgbrowning]

Where do you get "spell doesn't work on that type" from?

Dominate Person can't target a giant. But if it's already in effect on a giant, where does it say it doesn't work?

-Hyp.

The first line.

"You can control the actions of any humanoid creature"

It doesn't say "even after that humanoid is a giant"

You can't target a giant, only a humanoid, but just because the targeting worked doesn't mean the rest of the spell worked. Now this only works on spells that explictly state that they only work on a particular type of object. In your heat metal example, would the armor continue to heat if it was polymorphed into wood regardless of how it was targeted?

No, because the spell only works on metal, not wood.

joe b.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The first line.

"You can control the actions of any humanoid creature"

It doesn't say "even after that humanoid is a giant"

You can't target a giant, only a humanoid, but just because the targeting worked doesn't mean the rest of the spell worked. Now this only works on spells that explictly state that they only work on a particular type of object. In your heat metal example, would the armor continue to heat if it was polymorphed into wood regardless of how it was targeted?

No, because the spell only works on metal, not wood.

joe b.

The change into the giant or the change of metal into wood wouldn't end the spells though, they would just render parts of them ineffective. So the Giant couldn't receive any new commands from his master, for instance, but the one he already has is still in effect.

 

[Kelleris]

Hey, maybe. Who knows? Worth a shot, right?

Unfortunately, I'd feel dirty inside if I did that. I don't really have anything to contribute except to say that I agree with Hypersmurf's interpretation. For whatever that's worth.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"You can control the actions of any humanoid creature"

It doesn't say "even after that humanoid is a giant"

True, and I agree that the Vampire can't issue any more commands to the giant.

I could see arguments either way as to whether the giant must continue to follow the command he was issued prior to becoming a giant... but the line that says he continues refers to 'a dominated creature', not 'a dominated humanoid creature', and the giant is still a dominated creature... just one that the vampire can no longer control the actions of.

(After all, if the vampire issues a command "Guard this room", then goes off and gets destroyed, the character is still bound to carry out that task for 1 day/level. He'll get a new saving throw each day, since the vampire obviously won't spend a round each day concentrating on the spell, but just because the vampire is dead doesn't mean the character doesn't have to obey the command to the exclusion of all else.)

What would you rule on the sensory impressions issue? Can the vampire take a full round action to receive sensory impressions from the giant?

-Hyp.