Just saw RotJ Spec. Ed. on DVD for the first time...

[Kai Lord]

So the benefits outweigh the costs for you, eh?

That's pretty much what I said, yes.

Well, yes. The re-done movies are indeed shinier. They have more bright lights and loud sounds. The explosions are more explosivey. That's a definite gain there.

Oh please, your little bid for artistic high ground by demeaning the visuals and sound as nothing more than "bright lights, loud sounds, and explosivey explosions" isn't fooling anyone. This is the Star Wars saga. You're not impressing anyone to imply that half the fun isn't being dazzled by all the cool worlds, ships, creatures, and music. If the story wasn't there, sure they wouldn't be as big a deal as they are today, but if the visuals, sounds, and music weren't there then the films would lose an equal amount of impact. The story of Star Wars is very simple and the themes aren't new. What sets it apart is the setting and the way its presented. You know, all those bright lights and loud sounds.

What's lost? To me (and why should I care about what first-time viewers think when I can only judge a film on my preferences and not their ignorance?),

No one said you should care.

the Han-Greedo scene edit fundamentally changes the character of Han Solo. This is not a relatively trivial change from 10 X-wings to 50, but a series-shocking reversal of character.

No it isn't. To believe so only shows your ignorance. Greedo was going to blow Han away at the table. That's how it was always intended. So Han blew away Greedo. Again the way it was always intended to be. The only reason the change was made was because George didn't believe that it was clear that Greedo really was going to try and murder him on the spot. If he had realized that at the time it was filmed no doubt he would have reblocked the scene to make it more obvious. But that option wasn't available. All he could do was try and jury-rig the scene that was already there. Which led us to the awkward shot that exists today. The only character change whatsoever is for Greedo as he's now 1. a quicker shot and 2. a bigger spaz. I'm sorry, but the awesomeness of the Star Wars saga has hardly revolved around the nature and competence of a random throw-away bounty hunter who was a chump from the very beginning.

 

[Storm Raven]

No it isn't. To believe so only shows your ignorance. Greedo was going to blow Han away at the table. That's how it was always intended. So Han blew away Greedo. Again the way it was always intended to be. The only reason the change was made was because George didn't believe that it was clear that Greedo really was going to try and murder him on the spot.

It was pretty clear to every I know who saw it.

The only character change whatsoever is for Greedo as he's now 1. a quicker shot and 2. a bigger spaz.

Umm, no. It changes Han from a "shoot first, sort things out later" kind of guy to a "wait until your opponent fires" kind of guy.

I'm sorry, but the awesomeness of the Star Wars saga has hardly revolved around the nature and competence of a random throw-away bounty hunter who was a chump from the very beginning.

It's not the change to Greedo that matters. It's the change to Han. If you weren't busy getting so hot and bothered defending the deific nature of Lucas you'd notice that.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Umm, no. It changes Han from a "shoot first, sort things out later" kind of guy to a "wait until your opponent fires" kind of guy.

No longer does this argument hold up with the DVDs, since both Han and Greedo shoot at almost the exact same moment. Sure, it may look odd, but it shows both of them as out to kill the other despite whatever is said.

It's not the change to Greedo that matters. It's the change to Han. If you weren't busy getting so hot and bothered defending the deific nature of Lucas you'd notice that.

And if you weren't getting so hot and bothered about a truly minor change you might notice that it is only one small moment in the movie and that it in no way changes the very nature of Han at all.

 

[Desdichado]

It's not the change to Greedo that matters. It's the change to Han.

Not even just that. It's the change from a movie that would have a protagonist who would shoot first to one that wouldn't. The whole nature of the saga, not just Han is impacted. The level of seriousness with which the movies take themselves borders on pretentious now that we have this heavy-handed little moralistic retconning added in.

Of course, I'm not one of those guys who thinks the change is a sign of the coming Apocalypse, like some, but I honestly don't know who it was supposed to appeal to. It does nothing but make the scene worse, and I can't think of any other way of seeing it.

And then, adding in the Jabba scene while still not adding in the Biggs and Luke Tatooine scene was a blow too -- the Jabba scene was clumsily made and seriously detracts from Jabba's character by making him a bit of a chump rather than a truly threatening figure, while the still missing Biggs scene (I've seen screenshots of this scene; I know it exists somewhere!) is pretty important in understanding some of the later added scenes with Biggs on Yavin 4. Both of those changes are completely baffling to me; they don't improve the movie at all.

And the added X-wings in the last action sequence is perhaps evened out by the very hit-or miss added special effects in Mos Eisley. Most of those look fake, cheesy, childish attempts at gags, and very few of them actually improve the visual look of the movies.

<sigh> I'll probably end up converting my restored tapes that I bought right before they went off the market for good into DVD-Rs and when that happens, that'll be the only Star Wars OT I'll watch. The newer DVDs are as frustrating as they are improved -- not only from the Special Edition changes, but the further DVD changes as well.

 

[mojo1701]

I still don't see the difference in them shooting at the same time versus Han shooting first. Either way, Han was getting ready to shoot, and did. In the newer versions, Greedo apparently shoots with the same intention, even though it doesn't look 100%.

And yeah, I LOVE the redone. Say what you want, the improvements are there, and they work.

 

[Kai Lord]

Umm, no. It changes Han from a "shoot first, sort things out later" kind of guy to a "wait until your opponent fires" kind of guy.

Oh...so in the Detention Center Han blasted the comlink as soon as it turned on then wondered what would happen? Oh no wait...he tried to talk his way out of the situation first, then blasted the comlink controls. Wow, who'd a thought. Anyway, I don't see a change in Han, George said Greedo was always going to shoot and Han just outgunned him, and that Han's character didn't change, only how obvious Greedo's intentions were. I'm sorry, I know you guys are quite passionate about the scene but I'm going to have to side with 1. the dialogue of the scene "Over my dead body" "That's the idea", 2. the current blocking of the scene (both fire at virtually the same time) and 3. what the guy who created the characters and wrote the scene said about it. Sorry fellas.

It's not the change to Greedo that matters. It's the change to Han. If you weren't busy getting so hot and bothered defending the deific nature of Lucas you'd notice that.

Hey no one told me ENWorld was hosting a canned response food drive.

 

[Kai Lord]

while the still missing Biggs scene (I've seen screenshots of this scene; I know it exists somewhere!) is pretty important in understanding some of the later added scenes with Biggs on Yavin 4.

"That's what you said when Biggs and Tank left." --Luke to Uncle Owen on Tatooine.

"All of his friends have gone..." --Aunt Beru

"Hey Luke!" "Biggs!" "I told you I'd make it!" --Luke and Biggs in new Yavin IV scene

Do you really know people who are too dense to connect the dots? As for the cut footage, try and dig up a copy of the "Star Wars: Behind the Magic" CD-ROM. I believe its out of print, but it not only had the first Luke/Biggs scene (horribly acted IIRC), but it also has a longer cantina sequence with Han chilling with a girl before sliding over to talk to Luke. Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I do have to say I would have loved to see the Biggs/Luke scene(I believe Cammie was also supposed to appear) in ANH.

Also would have liked the sandstorm scene from RotJ.

But, oh well, I do have that old CD-ROM at least.

 

[Storm Raven]

Oh...so in the Detention Center Han blasted the comlink as soon as it turned on then wondered what would happen? Oh no wait...he tried to talk his way out of the situation first, then blasted the comlink controls. Wow, who'd a thought.

Yeah, he tried to talk himself out the situation badly. Showing why he seems to otherwise be a "shoot first, talk later" guy: he's bad at talking first.

Anyway, I don't see a change in Han, George said Greedo was always going to shoot and Han just outgunned him, and that Han's character didn't change, only how obvious Greedo's intentions were.

Now Han doesn't "outgun him" he gets lucky. In point of fact, in the original scene Hand didn't "outgun him", he didn't wait for things to get to that point. Waiting until your opponent fires is a classic Western cliche. Overturning that cliche is what made the scene great, now it's just run of the mill.

I'm sorry, I know you guys are quite passionate about the scene but I'm going to have to side with 1. the dialogue of the scene "Over my dead body" "That's the idea", 2. the current blocking of the scene (both fire at virtually the same time) and 3. what the guy who created the characters and wrote the scene said about it. Sorry fellas.

Lucas has made several pronouncements about what he "originally intended" that don't match up with anyone else's recollections.

 

[Storm Raven]

And then, adding in the Jabba scene while still not adding in the Biggs and Luke Tatooine scene was a blow too -- the Jabba scene was clumsily made and seriously detracts from Jabba's character by making him a bit of a chump rather than a truly threatening figure

Yeah, I'm not sure how we are supposed to be frightened of Jabba after Han steps on his tail. Plus, the dialogue from that scene is word for word the same as Han's dialogue with Greedo in places. It is obvious that the Greedo scene was to convey the information that the Jabba scene was supposed to convey, but couldn't because Lucas couldn't figure out how to present Jabba. So why have them both?