Kicking a player out of the group.

[Arcane Runes Press]

I don't think I'm unjistified in claiming that if someone is not being disruptive, but is simply:

A) A different type of player (again, Roll vs. Role, etc.)
B) A long time friend
C) Still interested in the game

and you kick them out of the group because you don't play the same way they do, rather than doing something sensible that works for everyone, you're on the fast track to being an antisocial gamer weirdo.

I disagree. I think if you're in a hobby with a friend and the two of you have decidedly different approaches to enjoyment of the hobby, then it's best to not participate in the hobby together anymore.

If the differences in play style are so marked, as these seem to be, that it's no longer fun, then it's time to cut losses for that hobby.

To do otherwise is to martyr yourself for the sake of a friendship. And doing that for a hobby is profoundly silly. Any friendship worthy of the name should be able to survive what boils down to "Hey, I like you, but we just want different things out of this game."

For me, gamer weirdness is clinging to disfunctional groups long past their expiration date, with martyrdom the height of anti-social behaviour.

Patrick Y.

 

[Chimera]

To do otherwise is to martyr yourself for the sake of a friendship. And doing that for a hobby is profoundly silly. Any friendship worthy of the name should be able to survive what boils down to "Hey, I like you, but we just want different things out of this game."

For me, gamer weirdness is clinging to disfunctional groups long past their expiration date, with martyrdom the height of anti-social behaviour.

Amen, brother!

 

[Chimera]

I am curious, how did you disinvite him from the game? As in, what did you say? And what did he say in return?

Assuming you're asking me...

He showed up at my house one day out of the blue, assuming we were playing that day. No idea where he got that idea.

I sat down with him and said, "I'm sorry to tell you, but I wasn't planning to invite you anymore." Then talked about how he didn't seem to be interested in playing the game, but just wanted to socialize. How he didn't even pay attention until it was time for him to roll his dice. He insisted that he wanted to play on one hand while on the other hand insisting that he also came to socialize with the others because he didn't see them very often.

I didn't bring up the cheating and the drinking until after he started to get angry and defensive. He swore up and down that he never cheated and nothing I said made a dent in that conviction. And on and on and on. Just a hopeless conversation with someone in complete denial.


Six months earlier, I was getting frustrated with all the socializing and drinking during the game, having a hard time putting so much effort into GMing when no one payed attention or cared about the game. (Keep in mind that everyone told me I was a great GM, so it wasn't unhappiness with my GMing skills, or so they claimed.)

So I had gone to the group with two options:
A> We stop socializing and actually play the game.
B> We stop playing D&D. I host a Casual Game Day once a month where everyone can come over, drink up a storm, play various other games and socialize to beat the band.

Five players chose A. One chose B. The player who chose B had the integrity to leave the game group of his own accord when he was outvoted, and I respect him for that.

The guy above had voted to play the game. I gave him six months to actually do that and he didn't. Ok, goodbye.

 

[GSHamster]

Interesting responses. I guess part of the problem is that the words "kick a person out" sound so casual, harsh and final. I'd expect that there would be an "intervention" step, where we'd sit down and talk about the problem and then offer a second chance.

I guess I'm just not seeing people suggest this step (or something like it), instead opting for booting the 'friend' right away.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Sometimes a person's style of play can be as disruptive as getting trashed and chattering at no-one in particular.

I once played with someone who had:

* Created a PC with goals and attitudes wildly divergent from the rest of the party.
* Come to the game expecting her boyfriend, the DM, to cater every session to the fulfilment of her character's goals, despite the fact that she was joining a game which had been running for about nine months.
* The terrible habit of confusing other PCs' attitudes towards her PC (the party was mostly evil and didn't make nice with each other, even though there was no open conflict) with either the other players' attitudes towards her PC or, worse, the players' attitudes towards her!
* In a separate game, run by someone else, created yet another PC that didn't fit in with the group (even though she was in it from the beginning) and, when dissatisfied with her character's ability at 2nd level to manipulate people socially as she imagined her character should, demanded to be allowed to use a base class from a different d20 game which fit her vision better.

Luckily, once the first campaign ended and she was no longer playing with a DM who would listen to her complain about how there wasn't anything for her to do and her character sucked (all this while simultaneously crowing about her massive Diplomacy modifiers and Charisma!), she figured out that the best course of action in a game you're not enjoying is to quit.

She's still just as friendly with everyone in the game and our social group - though admittedly I'm not sure whether this would be true if she'd been asked to leave - but those she played with spent a year bitching to each other about her in private and lamenting the first DM's indulgence of her, which just goes to show how dangerous geek social fallacies can be. We started to despise her because we despised her playing style, and I reckon it's better to lose them as a fellow player than as a friend.

 

[DragonLancer]

There's nothing wrong with getting rid of someone who is being a jerk. That's the way life goes. But getting rid of someone because they play differently? That's rude, and not a friendly thing to do.

I disagree. I had a similar problem a while ago (and to a smaller extent in my current campaign, both cases the same guy) with a player whose play style was very different to both the other players and my DMing style. We sorted the issue out this time thankfully, but I came very close to asking him not to come to the game again.

He was a powergamer (because 3.0/.5 really does point in this direction) while the rest of us are more interested in a lower level of play, with more of a edge of the seat "we could really die here" game. Compared to the other player, who was a hack, slash, the bad guys are all dead in one hit style of play.

We resolved it with the rest of us asking him to play to our playstyle for the rest of the current campaign, and the next time I run we'll try his style and see which we enjoy more.

The point is, if you have a disruptive player, even if he is your lifelong friend, you can't allow that to spoil your game. Your left with three real options:

1. Stop the game so no one gets hurt. There goes your game and your hobby. This isn't acceptable.
2. Talk to the guy. This is the best option, but if the guy won't listen or argues, you won't get anywhere. Believe I know.
3. Ask the guy to leave because the game is important. Just as fishing or football is important to some people, the game is just as important as your hobby, and you can't let a player spoil it for yourself and your other players.

 

[S'mon]

I'm just dropping that warning that throwing away friendships over a game of D&D is the express road to antisocial weirdo-gamerville.

If I say "Bob, you don't fit in my current D&D game, but of course you're still my friend - how about we go to that movie next week?"

& Bob says:
"You're dropping me from the game?! You're no longer my friend."

Who is throwing away the friendship here?

Genuine personal friends simply don't base their friendship on being always included in every social activity of their friend(s). Only geeks with a shaky grasp on the concept of 'friendship' do that. Hence the 5 geek social fallacies.

 

[S'mon]

For me, gamer weirdness is clinging to disfunctional groups long past their expiration date, with martyrdom the height of anti-social behaviour.

Yup. If you have any real friends, you know that true friendship isn't determinant on 100% shared activities. I have several friends who are gamers but who have widely divergent ideas of what they enjoy in a game (eg Bob likes tactical combat simulation, Lucy likes in-depth roleplay with minimal combat). If they find they don't enjoy gaming together, we don't game together.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Take a look at Gestalt Characters in Unearthed Arcana. 3.X is still geared around the Warrior, Healer, Spell Caster, Trap Finder core group. With two players Gestalt Characters would allow each of those bases covered.

Edit: By the way, the issues listed above is one of the reasons I rarely if ever play RPG's with my "Friends". My RPG group is more like being on a bowling league or softball team... we get together to play but other than that we don't really mix it up socially.

 

[sp00n]

I agree with most of the posts, however sometimes you need to factor in the personality of the person you are contemplating kicking out of the game. For some, conflict and numbers is part of the game irregardless of how the rest of the group plays and these types of people enjoy that aspect of the game. I've been in situations before where personalities didn't mesh and playing styles conflicted. With most I simply asked if they would mind stepping out for a time and they could rejoin when we started a new campaign. Most were in agreement and they didn't mind leaving, still retaining our friendship. On rare occasions you come across a person who, no matter how you say it, will completely blow up because the game is their life.

If 20 years of friendship means anything to this person, let them know that you don't want to jeopardize and you need them to step aside for a time. Maybe offer to run some one on one sessions to help this friend with his role-playing skills rather then concentrating on numbers.