Kicking a player out of the group.

[Evilhalfling]

Thanks S'mon
Im not expecting insightful pyschological analysis at 645 am
But I got it just the same. I have fought my way through 3 of 5, and still suffer from one of geek social falicies.

I have had to do this twice - once a group shattered into blocks over personality, living arragnements and money. I stayed friends with 3 of the four and even ran two campaigns - 2 players each for a while. I did eventually loose one friend of 12 years, but whether it was from gaming problems or his depression it was hard to say.

More recently I moved cities and formed a new group - two people in the group started butting heads after a few weeks, and when the newer of the two said he was leaving I thought about it, checked with the other players and asked the one I had known for 3 months to leave instead. It was agonizing but the player that left was a borderline troll, and a needy friend.
When I asked him to leave I stopped communicating with him.

Advice -
If you want to keep your older friend I would suggest it is possible, you just need to show him that he is still included in your life, just not your game.
as for the game - I have had problems with two player games, I suggest advertising in local gaming shop, clearly emphizising your style of play -
and do trial runs before inviting people to play full time. And if you start more than one new player starting a new campaign is more fair than continuing an old one - as the new players will be second fiddles.

 

[JesterPoet]

I'm sorry, but I've got to back 3catcircus on this one. I've long felt (every time I read a thread saying "I've got to kick my friend out of my gaming group, how do I do it") that the feeling of creating the perfect RPG atmosphere contributes significantly to the antisocial stigma of the "gamer."

It's one thing to kick someone out of a group that doesn't fit when you picked them up from an ad at the gaming store, or a post online. Kicking out a friend is something totally different.

Sure, you can hide behind your "Geek Social Fallacies" but the reality is that kicking a friend out of a group because they aren't a good roleplayer is a nasty thing to do. And a very unfriendly thing to do.

If your friend is offensive, and hurting the feelings of others at the table, and it can't be resolved by talking to him/her, okay, there's a serious problem. If your friend is abusing drugs/alcohol, and is causing a disturbance, not to mention making a situation dangerous for those around him/her, okay, there's another serious problem. I'm sure there are other serious problems too...

However, we're talking about someone who likes to roll dice more than roleplay (and before we get into a discussion about how we should all respect each other's type of gaming, please note that I am much more of a "role" player than "roll" player). So that's ruining your game? Big freakin' deal. You're not voting on world-changing events here... you're playing D&D. By asking this person, a friend among a group of friends, to leave the group because you don't like the way he/she plays, you will be hurting their feelings, for a shallow, stupid reason.

The game is nothing. The game is fleeting and insignificant. It is true that you may get over kicking someone out and be able to joke about it down the road. But it's also VERY likely that you won't be able to. Suppressed animosity could eventually come to the surface, and, if it does, you will have ruined something valuable for the sake of a game.

This is why some gamers don't have friends. To be so intense that you put the game before personal relationships is sad and disturbing to others. To do so invites, encourages and, in a way, justifies, ostracism. It's a nasty thing to do, and it takes a nasty person to do it, IMO.

Mind you, I don't know the poster in this thread. What I do know, is that I don't have enough information to know that her particular player isn't offensive or dangerous or whatnot. SO, this situation could be different. What I do know, however, is that there is a disturbing trend of people supporting "dumping" a friend for the "good of the game" with the same lack of information that I have, both in this thread and in others. I wouldn't do that, and I hope to all that is holy that the majority of other people wouldn't do it either.

Please, value your friendships. They're among those things that you simply don't realize the value of until they're gone. We're not talking about "friendship before all" here... We're talking about friendship before a game.

 

[Will]

If I and my friends like to play touch football, and one of our friends has a trick knee, a trick back, and we always have to spend half the game waiting for him to recover, it would be fair to ask the friend not to attend.

If you have movie night, and one friend cannot help but make loud comments through the movie, such that everyone has a miserable time, despite you asking the friend to cut it out, it would be fair to ask the friend not to attend.

If you go on roadtrips, but one of your friends is too big to fit in your Pinto, it would be fair to not invite him.

If I were said friend, I'd probably feel bad, but get over it.

This is one of the 'fallacies,' that being friends means that you have to enjoy everything together, or that enjoying an activity must be subservient to friendship.

'I want to go see a movie.'
"But I want to spend time with you! Aren't you my friend??"
'...'

Anyhow, that's my view.

 

[mythago]

I think as time has gone my DM style and his play style have widen in flavor. He has become strictly a numbers person, where I have become more story integrated. Neither one is better, just the gap as grown from workable to frustration at times.

That's probably the best way to present it--that your style and his have gotten far enough apart that he, too, probably finds it as frustrating as you do. If it's a matter of different tastes, rather than "Your roleplaying sucks!", it'll be much easier to ask him to drop the game.

 

[JesterPoet]

If I and my friends like to play touch football, and one of our friends has a trick knee, a trick back, and we always have to spend half the game waiting for him to recover, it would be fair to ask the friend not to attend.

We're not talking about a physical impediment here. And even if we were, if your friend lost his hands in a car accident and couldn't roll dice very easily, so he slowed the game down, yes... you'd be a bad person for asking him to leave the game.

And a friend with such physical imediments wouldn't likely want to play touch football, would they?

If you have movie night, and one friend cannot help but make loud comments through the movie, such that everyone has a miserable time, despite you asking the friend to cut it out, it would be fair to ask the friend not to attend.

Often, we're not talking about someone who is being disruptive. This thread didn't mention the player being disruptive, simply a different kind of gamer. If your friend liked horror movies, and you liked comedies, would it be more reasonable to kick said friend out of the movie group than to watch a horror flick ever so often and comedies the rest of the time? If your answer is yes, than I'd argue that you're not a very good friend or nice person.

If you go on roadtrips, but one of your friends is too big to fit in your Pinto, it would be fair to not invite him.

If I were said friend, I'd probably feel bad, but get over it.

Again, we're talking about a physical impossibility. We're not comparing apples to apples. Said friend likely wouldn't want to travel in your Pinto, and there are easy alternatives to "Sorry, Bill. Too big... you can't come."

This is one of the 'fallacies,' that being friends means that you have to enjoy everything together, or that enjoying an activity must be subservient to friendship.

'I want to go see a movie.'
"But I want to spend time with you! Aren't you my friend??"
'...'

Anyhow, that's my view.

We're not talking about not inviting someone to everything you do. We're talking about kicking someone out of an activity that a group has been doing for a long time. And there are other options. Friends work things out. Striving for balance that you may not even achieve perfectly is still better than losing a friend, IMO.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Without more information, your question is difficult to answer.

For example, what types of enemies are you using in your campaign? It's hard to say where you should add or modify the encounters without having a better idea of what's going on. Mid level characters have numerous foes they can face, even if there are only two party members. Since many humanoids go up in levels, this still allows you to have many leaders and other specialists types to help counter the players as they go up in levels.

 

[Chimera]

And a friend with such physical imediments wouldn't likely want to play touch football, would they?

But if they do? Been there, seen that! For example, the drama queen (or king) who wants to be the center of attention may decide to "play" anyways, knowing that his/her inability to play will bring the desired attention and/or sympathy.

If your friend liked horror movies, and you liked comedies, would it be more reasonable to kick said friend out of the movie group than to watch a horror flick ever so often and comedies the rest of the time? If your answer is yes, than I'd argue that you're not a very good friend or nice person.

But if I don't like horror movies? If that "friend" constantly denegrates the choice or idea of going to see comedy movies?

Am I "not a nice person" if I refuse to go to movies that disgust me?

Said friend likely wouldn't want to travel in your Pinto

Been there, done that. "We can take so-and-so's car instead" "Let's go somewhere else", etc, etc, ad nauseum. Soon enough, you're 'compromising' your trip into oblivion and it isn't your trip anymore. A week long camping trip to Yellowstone turns into an evening trip to the local park where you spend all your time fetching (your) beer for Bill.

The next part however, I agree with. It all comes down to HOW you tell people such things.

Friends work things out. Striving for balance that you may not even achieve perfectly is still better than losing a friend, IMO.

It is a Logical Fallacy to insist that all problems can be resolved through discussion.

It is a slow death to constantly surrender our own needs, our own dreams, our own happiness to conform to the expectations of others. Striving for balance sometimes means that I have to ask that longtime friend to stop gaming with me simply because I'm not happy gaming with him anymore.

Yes, it's just a game. But since when is a friendship more important than my happiness, than my enjoyment of life? Why does a friendship mean that I have to continue being stressed and unhappy playing a game that I should be enjoying?

 

[JesterPoet]

I still have to disagree with you, Chimera. Again, we have no evidence that we're talking about someone being disruptive... just someone who plays differently.

But either way, I'm not going to keep arguing this, because we're totally derailing the thread. What I will leave it with is that everyone needs to do what is right for them. I'm just dropping that warning that throwing away friendships over a game of D&D is the express road to antisocial weirdo-gamerville. There are not just some things in life that are more important than RPGs, but a LOT of things. And friendships, particularly long ones, are at the top of that list.

Do what you will, do what you must... but don't come crying when the rest of the world thinks you're a weirdo because you're too into your hobby. And remember, when you think someone else is ruining your game, before you kick them out, make sure you're a decent DM to begin with. Maybe your game just isn't all that good... maybe it's your lack of balance that really makes things a bummer... you never know.


EDIT
And I apologize for derailing the thread... I didn't really think about what I was starting.

 

[mythago]

Suppressed animosity could eventually come to the surface

Don't you think that will happen in a game where everyone is resentful and having a bad time because the friend's playing style doesn't mesh?

You want to break up a friendship? Imagine how the friend will feel if he ever finds out that everybody else spent all those gaming sessions wishing he wasn't there. I don't know about you, but THAT would honk me off. Multiply said honking-off by a factor of about a thousand if it were a game I hadn't enjoyed, but remained in because I was afraid leaving would upset my friends!

If a friendship is based on the idea that you can't be honest (in a kind, constructive way) when your friend's actions make you unhappy, I'm sorry to say I can't see that as much of a friendship.

Do what you will, do what you must... but don't come crying when the rest of the world thinks you're a weirdo because you're too into your hobby.

The only word that comes to mind here is "ludicrous." I find it hard to believe that world opinion of gamerdom stems from whether or not we can tell people that there are problems in the gaming group.

 

[jasper]

Is any different to quit playing poker with a friend when everyone enjoys penny dime raise limit and problem peter decides he wants to play quarter limit just because he thinks more fun.
Or eveyone one enjoys normal poker and problem peter wants to play texas holdme because it all over the bravo and travel channels?
Sorry I have friends who I game with and have friends i will not game with. I have friends I will swing a stick at but will not call them for movie night. Just because a friend is into the same hobby I am does not me we will get along with each other as we get indepth to the hobby. I may like ho sets with variety terrian. He may like steam loco pre 1945 and his set up is chicago to new york to oct 3 1939. My set has the hoggwarts express miami limited and king kong may throw boulders down on the tracks. He may own model railroad replicates I own toy trains. Same hobby, some of same game play but two different worlds.
I have old friends, new friends and discover old friends come and go but you can always make new friends.