Kicking a player out of the group.

[billd91]

Thorny issue. I wouldn't feel comfortable about telling a 20+ year friend whom I've been gaming with for years that he's no longer welcome at that game just because of a difference in gaming style. This isn't just a minor thing. This is a shared social activity and probably one of the means by which you maintain this friendship (though it's true there may be more). For one thing, it gets you in touch with each other on a regular basis... every night you game. It's one of the things you have in common with this friend. Without the game, that's one fewer thing in common and one more barrier to getting into contact since that's a night in which you are unavailable. I'd be tremendously hurt if I was asked to leave the gaming group of long-time friends if I wasn't a disruption. In one sense, it's just a game. But in another sense, it's not just a game, it's a long-shared fellowship.

That said, there may be ways to get him out of that campaign. With my current gaming group, we meet weekly and play 3 different games, in rotation. For 2 weeks, I run Greyhawk, a friend runs a home-brew D&D game for another 2 weeks, and a second friend runs Cthulhu for 2 weeks and then we're back to me. Yes, this means the adventures can take a long time, but it also means that we cover a breadth of interests and styles on a regular basis and everyone who wants to participate in one game or the other has the opportunity to do so. What I would suggest is that you split the groups (sort of) into 2 different campaigns or games. One being the heavier RP game that you and the other 2 players want, and one more number-crunchy, beer-and-pretzels oriented to keep the other player and 20+ year friend involved. I'm sure you and the other players have a few other ideas percolating around other than just the main campaign you're DMing. Pick one and run with it on the alternate session.

 

[Alynnalizza]

Thanks again for all of the posts. I didn't realize the small hornets nest I may have stirred. But it has been interesting seeing everyone's response.

For the sake of the friendship, I have asked him to leave the current game. I believe the tension was getting too dangerous towards losing him as a friend. It was a VERY TOUGH decision. One that I fretted on for a long time.

So far he has been okay with it. I know he has another group he has recently joined in, so hopefully he can find his interests more suited with them.

As far as CR and EL's go thanks to all the help and opinions. Its given me something to think about. (Guess I'm going to have to scale back my invading army ).

 

[Mr. Kaze]

IME, people who get kicked from a game typically both see it coming and kind of want it to happen. My brother was working on courting his GF who really had no interest in the game other than him, so he took a hiatus. A couple of friends were fundamentally off-base in how dangerous combat is so, oddly enough, they quit an hour before I had a chance to ask them if they wanted to quit.

("Look, Joe, you're a great friend and all, but lately you're just not here in the game when we're playing? Is there something wrong? Need some time off?" -- if it's not all in your head, this is good place to start.)

Anyway, down three players, that left me with my wife and a neighbor. We gave them ultra-chibi Half Red Dragon Halflings and let 'em rip for a couple of sessions before acquiring more players for a real campaign.

Having just two players was a bit of a blast becuase combats were purely descriptive and very fast. We didn't play on a mat, only sketching things out if really necessary.

If I had to do it again, I'd definitely pick up the rules for Gestalt characters -- they probably advance much better than half-dragon halflings.

::Kaze

 

[Chimera]

I'm not going to keep arguing this, because we're totally derailing the thread.

Well, not really, considering how often this topic has come up. I've faced it myself (see below).

I'm just dropping that warning that throwing away friendships over a game of D&D is the express road to antisocial weirdo-gamerville.

Do what you will, do what you must... but don't come crying when the rest of the world thinks you're a weirdo because you're too into your hobby.

Now this is a nasty thing to say or assume. And tells me that you aren't real comfortable with your gaming habit.


As I said above, this thread topic comes up fairly frequently. It's something many of us have to face, not just in our gaming career, but in all facets of our life.

I had to drop a longtime (12+ year) "friend" from my gaming group 2.5 years ago. He was the kind of guy who freely admitted that the game itself wasn't important to him, that he simply showed up to socialize with the group. He would down a 6-pack of beer in 5 hours, raid my singlemalts at will (while not bothering to pour me a shot) and interrupt scenes and descriptions with off-topic conversation. He never paid any attention to the game until it was his turn to roll the dice. Never contributed to any decision making.

Then he started cheating. At first it was rolling the dice and claiming it was a 16 when everyone could see it was a 4. Then he stopped rolling altogether and simply declared that he hit. Blatantly, obviously, right in front of everyone.

So I decided to stop inviting him to the game.

He insisted that he never cheated, despite the fact that everyone present knew and saw that he was doing it. He didn't understand *at all* the idea of being an active part of the game. He just wanted to socialize and didn't see anything wrong with that. He didn't see anything wrong with getting drunk, or drinking up my scotch.

So he went away angry and our friendship ended. But to tell the truth, our friendship had been on life-support for two years. He was a bad friend and I had already reached the point of not wanting him in my life anymore. It was simply time for him to go.

 

[Whimsical]

I am curious, how did you disinvite him from the game? As in, what did you say? And what did he say in return? I just want to increase my knowledge base on this topic.

I would suggest asking your players some broad questions about what they want to get out of the game. Now that you have the opportunity to fully change to your commonly desired style of play. Questions like "Why do you play RPGs? What do you get out of playing RPGs? What were some of the happiest funnest most satisfying RPG moments? What would you like to do or see in an RPG that you haven't had a chance to do yet?" All the while, ask yourself the same questions. After you make your Gather Information roll, see if you can incorporate some of the revealed ideas, insights, or inspirations into your future campagin plans. You have the opportunity to make the most wonderful and memorable game for everyone involved. You just need to do some customer surveys. WotC did when designing 3e. I think that this effort payed off in a massive way, don't you?

Oh yeah, I also recommend buying and reading the book listed in my sig.

 

[JesterPoet]

Again, Chimera, you're talking about someone who is playing to specifically be disruptive and rude. That's a completely different situation than someone who just plays differently (role-playing vs. roll-playing). A good friend is always more important than the game. But you're not talking about a good friend. You're talking about a jerk.

There's nothing wrong with getting rid of someone who is being a jerk. That's the way life goes. But getting rid of someone because they play differently? That's rude, and not a friendly thing to do.

I don't think I'm unjistified in claiming that if someone is not being disruptive, but is simply:

A) A different type of player (again, Roll vs. Role, etc.)
B) A long time friend
C) Still interested in the game

and you kick them out of the group because you don't play the same way they do, rather than doing something sensible that works for everyone, you're on the fast track to being an antisocial gamer weirdo.

 

[random user]

I'm not actually sure this will be helpful, but it's a thought...

Try videotaping the session. I know it probably sounds weird, but a lot of times people don't realize the extent to which they do things. Someone might not realize they are stealing the spotlight, cutting off other people, dismissive of descriptions, freeloading beer, or whatever other problem they may have. (OTOH, other people do realize it and they just don't care or don't think it's a problem. This isn't a judgement of "right" or "wrong" here btw, different people are entitled to different opinions.)

When I did speech and debate in school we did this and it helped me a lot. My friend who has taken some acting lessons says that watching a videotape really has helped her a lot.

Like I said, it won't work in all cases, and may be impractical (maybe audiotape would be more feasible) but, who knows, it might be helpful to someone out there...

 

[frankthedm]

Again, we're talking about a physical impossibility. We're not comparing apples to apples. Said friend likely wouldn't want to travel in your Pinto, and there are easy alternatives to "Sorry, Bill. Too big... you can't come."

"Dude, you'll bust my shocks"

Only a very ignorant lardo fails to understand thier wieght can be hazardous to a cheap or sporty car. I have about 150 pounds of extra fat and in no way expect to travel in a small car. Unfortunatly i persononaly know someone of my mass who sinks into denial on such a subject and has to usually be told twice when they will not fit in a car and insists on trying anyways, crushing other passengers or the driver.

When you get to the 300 pound and up club its your responcability to know what will and will not handle your weight. If you think a chair might not hold your weight, DON'T SIT IN IT! Don't whine and moan when it breaks and think it broke because its cheap, it broke because you are fat.

Friends work things out. Striving for balance that you may not even achieve perfectly is still better than losing a friend, IMO.

Playstyles differ, if a player fails to understand that and insists it is a blow against him personally, he is an ignorant fool.


Best way to deal with the situation, is to inform the group as a whole that XP will be awarded 75% success through roleplay 25% through dicerolls.

 

[Will]

If I want to play chess and really enjoy it and my friend really wants to play poker, and we don't really like the other game, we should probably socialize in a venue outside of chess or poker.

That's how I see play styles. SOMETIMES you can compromise.. I know my group has a wild assortment of different desires. But one friend, for example, really doesn't like over the top high fantasy. Which is all we've been playing for a year or more.

He decides to tough it out, but he often misses games or gets snarky about the game. If his behavior went further, I am quite prepared to tell him, 'Look, unfortunately, the game we really really want to play isn't the game you want to play, and that's obvious. I'll see you on Everquest.'

 

[mythago]

rather than doing something sensible that works for everyone

Such as saying, "Bob, you're a great friend, but your style of play and mine aren't meshing. If we keep trying to play this game together we're just going to annoy each other, so let's not, because I want to stay friends"? That sounds sensible and works for everyone, except maybe anti-social gaming geeks who feel personally affronted if their friends don't also want to play every single game with them.

Or by 'something sensible' did you mean, grit your teeth and put up with it until the game peters out because all the other players drop out? That seems pretty darn passive-aggressive to me.