D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

[Maxperson]

Even if the assumption that “teens have no money to spend on D&D” were indisputably true, there would still be a compelling reason for WOTC to pursue the 12-24 demographic:

Those “broke” 12-24 year-olds will eventually be 30-40 year-olds with much more disposable income. And if they become D&D fans at a young age, WOTC can potentially break off a chunk of that disposable income for decades.

I already said that. There is a pretty significant overlap in what the various demographics like. So you make stuff for the teens who will eventually be older and have disposable income, but make even more stuff for those who actually buy the product. Once those teens become those who buy the product, they shift the bulk of what is in it to what they like best, but still put in stuff the new teens like. Rinse repeat for decades.

To pursue the 12-24 demographic to the exclusion(or even as the primary demographic) of the others is quite frankly stupid. Yes they will eventually be the ones spending the money, but by the time that they get there a new 12-24 demographic will be on the scene and the game will be aimed at them and not the old demographic that now has the money.

 

[teitan]

And yet nobody has offered any actual proof of that spending. None. Except to claim that WotC made a claim that they did, even though they couldn't actually get any proof of age on store sales because nobody asks that.

I think the sales of D&D are proof in and of themselves. It’s pretty massive.

The question here isn’t are teens playing and how are they paying. It isn’t even a question. They are. They’re using D&D Beyond. They’re pooling money to buy the stuff and sharing accounts. That $200 becomes 20-30 bucks each.

 

[teitan]

They aren't discouraged. I see lots of teens and children, as well as women and minorities at these game conventions. It's not even remotely close to being all old white guys anymore.

It was never close to being old white guys anyway.

 

[Parmandur]

So what. You'd think that some of the ones that are spending all this money would make it to a con. If teens are buying as much as you are claiming, it's very unlikely that it's only older people who have those armies. Especially since I see lots of teens at these conventions, so it's not like they aren't going to them.

Sure, some go, but the sample is infinitesimal.

I've been playing D&D for nigh 20 years, and spent thousands of dollars on D&D products in the past decade: yet I have never played an RPG in a store (though I buy from a FLGS, I don't play there) or convention. And by the numbers, it is pretty clear most people aren't going to.

I'm not sure why you think WotC is incapable of conducting market research, or that there isnsome vast conspiracy among all game companies to pretend that teens and teens drive their sales...

The demographics for the movie ticjets thisnweekend for Honor Among Thieves, for example, are primarily teens and tweens. That's also a general trend in movies as well as other entertainment fields.

 

[Maxperson]

I think the sales of D&D are proof in and of themselves. It’s pretty massive.

Nope. Not proof at all since you can't point to 15 year olds and show that they are the ones that spent the money. 60% of all players are in the 25+ category that I've been talking about. If you're pointing to sales as proof(and it's not), then it's proof of what I'm saying not what you are saying.

The question here isn’t are teens playing and how are they paying. It isn’t even a question. They are. They’re using D&D Beyond. They’re pooling money to buy the stuff and sharing accounts. That $200 becomes 20-30 bucks each.

So D&D Beyond is what has resulted in the massive physical book sales that they've been having? How does that work exactly?

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, some go, but the sample is infinitesimal.

Tell me how "a lot" = "infinitesimal." I see a lot of them at the cons I go to here in Los Angeles.

I've been playing D&D for nigh 20 years, and spent thousands of dollars on D&D products in the past decade: yet I have never played an RPG in a store (though I buy from a FLGS, I don't play there) or convention. And by the numbers, it is pretty clear most people aren't going to.

You keep saying that like it is proof of something. It's not. A lot of people still go to conventions and there is a good mix of ages that attend.

I'm not sure why you think WotC is incapable of conducting market research, or that there isnsome vast conspiracy among all game companies to pretend that teens and teens drive their sales...

The demographics for the movie ticjets thisnweekend for Honor Among Thieves, for example, are primarily teens and tweens. That's also a general trend in movies as well as other entertainment fields.

I'm interested in seeing a link to that information. It wasn't that way at all at the movie I attended, but that really is a small sample size and can't be used as reliable. Do you have a link?

 

[teitan]

Nope. Not proof at all since you can't point to 15 year olds and show that they are the ones that spent the money. 60% of all players are in the 25+ category that I've been talking about. If you're pointing to sales as proof(and it's not), then it's proof of what I'm saying not what you are saying.

So D&D Beyond is what has resulted in the massive physical book sales that they've been having? How does that work exactly?

WOtC has thought. You’re choosing to ignore it.

 

[teitan]

Tell me how "a lot" = "infinitesimal." I see a lot of them at the cons I go to here in Los Angeles.

You keep saying that like it is proof of something. It's not. A lot of people still go to conventions and there is a good mix of ages that attend.

I'm interested in seeing a link to that information. It wasn't that way at all at the movie I attended, but that really is a small sample size and can't be used as reliable. Do you have a link?

You keep acting like your thoughts and feelings are evidence as well. They aren’t. WOTC’s market research through DDB and sales figures are. Less than 10% of people are going to go to a con or play in a store. I don’t play in a store and I only started going to gaming cons after the pandemic and I have been playing for 34 years. Your argument about physical book sales are really confusing too because what drove 3.x era books sales and Pathfinder book sales? Both were largely driven by younger players as well that are now in their 30s and early 40s and we were paying out far more per month for books and stuff then than we are now? So I’m confused why this is hard to grasp. Back then it was 2 or three 30-50 dollar books a month and quarterly mini releases, plus extras, the D20 boom of which some were extremely popular as well. I had two players in high school who bought every book as it came out, especially the more expensive Forgotten Realms books when we got one every other month. WOtC has put out their survey and data results pointing to an age range and you’re just disagreeing with it because you don’t see it in your local store and conventions? Maybe because they’re, like us as teens, looking forward to when they can go to Gencon/Origins/Pax etc and choosing to buy their… 2 or 3 sourcebooks a year and their DM buying their adventure.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

No worries! We've all done that.

Yes, that's true. However, what's left still far outstrips $120 a month

Maybe I missed it, but where are you getting the $120/ month from?

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

To be fair I can name more artists who work on DCC than I can WOTC or Paizo because the artists at WOTC and Paizo have become sort of interchangeable. Outside of Reynolds.

I can’t name a single DCC artist, but then again most of the D&D artist I know are from 1e!