D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

[mamba]

That's not at all relevant to the numbers in those articles. Teens spend about $60 a year on the category D&D would be in, and it has to compete with other things in that category.

on average, sure, as I already said these are not narrowly defined bands that everyone is in but wide bands that vary a lot from person to person

Sure, but you can't even begin to say that everyone(or even a majority) of the teens who play D&D will prioritize it over all the other stuff. D&D has to compete with things that are generally much more important to teens, like clothing, video games and tech items.

of course they do prioritize, you are now making my argument for me (see a few posts up…)

Because the odds are very much against people prioritizing D&D over everything else.

it does not have to be ‘over everything else’ when you have $2400 to spend and everything D&D costs $200

You think WotC would be thrilled that a significant chunk of their players only buy 1 of the multiple products they put out a year? Hell, can $30 even buy a D&D book anymore?

no, I said they would be thrilled if everyone did. Yes, $30 buys you a book on Amazon, just not in the first month of release. The digital version never costs more though and the profit margin is better for WotC…

Heck, I got books for <= $20 there

I also love how you are cherry picking the $2400 from the spending articles, while simultaneously completely ignoring the spending percentages. That was fantastic.

Thanks, and I even had a reason for it which I explained (and repeated here already). To summarize

- Teens buy what they prefer, because you chose to go with all their expenses there is really nothing else to it

- the percentages are wide bands, not every teen will spend exactly that on each category, these are averages that vary widely

- anyone into D&D can easily buy everything D&D with the money they have for one month, in other words it costs less than 10% of their disposable income ($200 vs $2400), and they still have plenty of money to spare for the rest

- so it all is a matter of what you prefer to spend money on, as I already said, and the fact that the D&D stuff is less than 10% of their income (and about 5% if they time it right / are cheap about it) means that those who do prioritize it can easily afford to (which would not be true if everything D&D in a year were, say, 50% of their income)

So yeah, I see these statistics as backing my point

 

[Hussar]

The planet where people here are claiming kids get $30 a week as an allowance. I've never heard of it that high, but there are multiple articles out there that put it at $15-$30 a week for a 15 year old, though they generally have to do chores to get it.

You're also talking about employed teens. We're discussing the vast majority of teens who don't work and rely on allowance.

What makes you think the majority of teens don’t work? And why would doing chores make any difference?

Why do people keep insisting that the older gamers matter? This is the drum that’s been beaten since 1999 when 3e released. DnD has always been primarily a game for the 16-25 crowd. Always has been and always will be.

 

[mamba]

And yet nobody has offered any actual proof of that spending.

and yet you have not offered proof of it not being spent, your statistics only show that not everyone does / most don’t buy everything. That incidentally is true for every age group…

 

[mamba]

So what. You'd think that some of the ones that are spending all this money would make it to a con. If teens are buying as much as you are claiming, it's very unlikely that it's only older people who have those armies

really? did you ever stop to ask how long those people have been collecting minis? There is a reason why the collection grows with age… I am also sure VTTs do not help with that

Also having a large mini collection is very much veering off playing D&D and buying books. As you said

And yet when I go to conventions, it's primarily the older folks who I see fielding armies of figures for Warhammer, Battletech and other miniature wargames.

If you want to make the argument that teens do not have the income for expensive Dwarvenforge minis / environments then I’d agree, but that is not the claim you are making

At this point your argument seems to boil down to ‘people with more money buy more stuff’ and ‘people who lived longer own more stuff’, well, duh

 

[mamba]

Tell me how "a lot" = "infinitesimal." I see a lot of them at the cons I go to here in Los Angeles.

how many do you see? hundreds? How many play? millions. Folks going to conventions simply are infinitesimal in any age group

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

how many do you see? hundreds? How many play? millions. Folks going to conventions simply are infinitesimal in any age group

I spent a lot annually on DND. And I have never been to a con. There is a huge group of players that have never been to a con and likely never will go

 

[Red Castle]

It reminds me of the Prequel Trilogy when it came out. A lot of fans hated them, saying that it wasn’t Star Wars and multiple of other reasons.

But those movies were mostly meant for children, not the older fans. 20+ years later, now a lot of fans have fond memories of the prequels, because they were meant for them when they grew up. The prequels created a whole new wave of Star Wars fans. It was an investment.

Regardless of where most of the money is, investing in new generations of consumers that will keep your product alive should always be a priority if you are playing the long game.

It doesn’t mean that the old fans should be ignored. The goal should be to target the young crowd to hook them to your game so that they start to spend on your product for the many years to come, while also not angering the old players so that they continue to spend their earnings on your product. Both generations are important, the difference is that one must be won and the other must be kept.

 

[Red Castle]

I spent a lot annually on DND. And I have never been to a con. There is a huge group of players that have never been to a con and likely never will go

Same for me. I've been playing TTRPG, Boardgames and Miniature games for about 30 years spending a lot of money on those hobby, and yet never went to a Con. Would love to one day, but still have to.

Let's not forget that going to a Con is not just about wanting to go, it's actually a big investment. You have to pay for your pass, you have to pay for the travel, rent a room, foods... It's a luxury, so yeah, I would expect to see mostly older players with a good income to cover all those expenses, not young people that, like it has been said by both parties in this discussion, has limited income, so going to a Con is probably veeery low on their priority scale.

A more representative place could be the FLGS because now distance and admission cost is not really an issue. But then again, there is other factors to take into consideration that doesn't make it really reliable, like for exemple the preference to play in store or at home. I know I personnally prefer to play at home, in the confort of my gaming room.

What I do know though, is that when I walk into the FLGS and look at the people playing Magic or miniature games, they seems to be mostly young people. Now those games ain't cheap, so if one of them would decide to prioritise playing DnD, money should not be an issue. So it seems that it is even more important for WotC to target the younger generation. Not only are they the future, but since they have a more limited income, you have to convince them that your product is the best there is, the better investment. If you target the older crowd that is mostly already sold, not only will your consumer base won't grow as much, but new younger might not find your product as attractive, so will spend their limited income somewhere else and just buy a player handbook, or maybe subscribe to DnDBeyond.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why do people keep insisting that the older gamers matter?

Perhaps because most of us here are older gamers, and people like to think they matter? I don't have a horse in the money argument really, but that's a pretty bald statement, just casually telling people they don't matter.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The goal should be to target the young crowd to hook them to your game so that they start to spend on your product for the many years to come, while also not angering the old players so that they continue to spend their earnings on your product. Both generations are important, the difference is that one must be won and the other must be kept.

That would be a great plan. I really wish WotC was following it.

Of course, I also appreciate the prequels despite being old, but that's mostly because I love worldbuilding.