D&D 5E Large Size PCs?

[Cyber-Dave]

For the most part, it is sort of balanced. I am leary of a race that both a) gets +2 to two stats and b) gets +1d4 to damage dealt with all weapons. It is, however, inconsistent with the rules of the rest of the game. The DMG and MM already define large sized weapons as weapons that deal double their normal damage dice. If you are going to go this route, I would suggest calling "large sized weapons" something else instead. For example, "oversized weapons." As these are half ogres and are on the small side of the large scale, the reasoning can be that they are a little too small to wield the large sized weapons usually carried by ogres.

 

[Elon Tusk]

For the most part, it is sort of balanced. I am leary of a race that both a) gets +2 to two stats and b) gets +1d4 to damage dealt with all weapons. It is, however, inconsistent with the rules of the rest of the game. The DMG and MM already define large sized weapons as weapons that deal double their normal damage dice. If you are going to go this route, I would suggest calling "large sized weapons" something else instead. For example, "oversized weapons." As these are half ogres and are on the small side of the large scale, the reasoning can be that they are a little too small to wield the large sized weapons usually carried by ogres.

While I understand that 2 different stats can increase by 2, the subrace ABS increase/decrease each cancel each other out, giving the overall race a +2 bump, less than most races. And shouldn't a large race be tougher and stringer than the norm? It still cannot go over a 20 in a single score.

With all of the issues brought up earlier in this thread about how the extra damage die for large weapons can multiply with extra attacks and feats, the Enlarge spell solution seemed most appropriate (for simplicity and continuity) as it is the only place (that I could find) that talks about a PC gaining a bonus from a large weapon. Neither Giant Formn or Guardian Soul give a bonus for using weapons when size large.

The Enlarge spell says: "The target's Weapons also grow to match its new size. While these Weapons are enlarged, the target's Attack with them deal 1d4 extra damage."
If they match a large PC's size, wouldn't they be large weapons?

 

[Cyber-Dave]

While I understand that 2 different stats can increase by 2, the subrace ABS increase/decrease each cancel each other out, giving the overall race a +2 bump, less than most races. And shouldn't a large race be tougher and stringer than the norm? It still cannot go over a 20 in a single score.

Yea, that design philosophy doesn't work. There is a reason stat penalties are only found on monstrous race choices, and the book calls out all the races as only being available per DM purview. Because of the way min-maxing and class build design works, the stat penalty is irrelevant. For the most part, it isn't a balancing factor; it is a flavour factor. Sometimes you can use a stat penalty as a balancing factor if the penalty is to a stat that the classes you are promoting with your other race features would otherwise want. For example, if you give the race a bunch of abilities which a rogue would love but then give the race a penalty to Dexterity, that would help out rogue characters built with that race choice. You could, with this half-ogre design, use a penalty to Strength or Constitution as a balancing factor. Your penalties, however, are to Intelligence. They are pure fluff. They will ensure that half-ogres stay away from intelligence based build choices and stick to more "brutish" builds. Those penalties, however, do nothing to balance those brutish builds. A brutish build with +2 to Strength, Con, and +1d4 to weapon damage, combined with more racial features besides, is overpowered. I wouldn't allow it at a table if I were DMing.

With all of the issues brought up earlier in this thread about how the extra damage die for large weapons can multiply with extra attacks and feats, the Enlarge spell solution seemed most appropriate (for simplicity and continuity) as it is the only place (that I could find) that talks about a PC gaining a bonus from a large weapon. Neither Giant Formn or Guardian Soul give a bonus for using weapons when size large.

The Enlarge spell says: "The target's Weapons also grow to match its new size. While these Weapons are enlarged, the target's Attack with them deal 1d4 extra damage."
If they match a large PC's size, wouldn't they be large weapons?

Magic is magic. It does weird things. All of the large sized weapons wielded by monstrous NPCs deal double the damage dice. Spells do odd things as exceptions to the general rule by their very nature. Your race isn't using a spell. The internal logic of the game is inconsistent with the rules you have provided. I like internally consistent rules. There are two easy fixes. The first fix changes the name of the weapons that your half-ogres can use from "large" to "oversized." The second option uses an exception based rule that says something like, "half-ogres can use large sized weapons. Because half-ogres are not as large as a full sized ogre, when they do, as opposed to the damage usually dealt by the weapon, the half-ogre deals the same damage as the weapon's medium sized variant +1d4." The mechanics end up working the same way. You, however, avoid the corner case where a player picks up an ogre's greataxe and asks, "why is this weapon dealing 1d12+1d4 in my hands but 2d12 in the hands of any large NPC that uses it?"

 

[Elon Tusk]

Yea, that design philosophy doesn't work. There is a reason stat penalties are only found on monstrous race choices, and the book calls out all the races as only being available per DM purview.

I would call a half-ogre a monstrous race choice.
In fact, I did: "abilities due to their monstrous nature."

You could, with this half-ogre design, use a penalty to Strength or Constitution as a balancing factor. Your penalties, however, are to Intelligence. They are pure fluff. They will ensure that half-ogres stay away from intelligence based build choices and stick to more "brutish" builds.

Intelligence ability scores are mechanics not fluff; they may be less significant than other scores but mechanics nonetheless.
I don't see the "internal logic" of a large half-ogre/half-bugbear getting a reduction to Strength and Constitution when both of its parents had increases in those stats or an increase in Intelligence when a half-ogre only has a 7.
I think the problem with players asking why their half-ogres are different than the NPC race applies here as well.
Perhaps a Constitution reduction is needed as the MM half-ogre only has a 14, giving on one +2 score bonus; that's an easy fix.

I wouldn't allow it at a table if I were DMing.

No worries. As a monstrous PC, you wouldn't have to.

The first fix changes the name of the weapons that your half-ogres can use from "large" to "oversized."

That seems to defy "internal logic" again: is there an actual size difference between "large" and "oversized"?
We're talking about an 8' tall 450 pound half-ogre with a large long sword compared to an 8' tall 450 pound bugbear with a regular long sword; would there be a longsword in between those two weapons?

The second option uses an exception based rule that says something like, "half-ogres can use large sized weapons. Because half-giants are not as large as a full sized ogre, when they do, as opposed to the damage usually dealt by the weapon, the half-ogre deals the same damage as the weapon's medium sized variant +1d4." The mechanics end up working the same way. You, however, avoid the corner case where a player picks up an ogre's greataxe and asks, "why is this weapon dealing 1d12+1d4 in my hands but 2d12 in the hands of any large NPC that uses it?"

I'm assuming you meant half-orgres instead of half-giants.
I think something like that would work, but the MM large-size half-ogre does get the double damage die and is only 8' tall; the MM large-size ogre is 9' to 10' tall and also gets the double damage die.

 

[Blue]

I don't know of any edition of D&D that had large (or tiny) sized races available to the PCs in their first PHB.

I'm also not sure of any edition of D&D that really did it in a balanced way. 3.x had ECL which because they weren't using bounded accuracy hosed you, and racial HD, which hosed you if you wanted to play something that needed anything beyond BAB like a caster.

5e already has a good for the goose but not for the gander feel in regards to large PCs - enlarge only gives you +d4 damage, but large sized weapons from foes like ogres do a heck of a lot more than that.

So let's turn this around: With the assumption that 80%+ of character creation rules int he book is about combat, how do we add in large sized PCs that are balanced in combat? (Both not overpowering as weapon wielders and not overly gimped as full casters.)

I've tried (as others did) to look at short racial classes but that didn't work well. Feats might be a possibility, so you don't start as large and later gain that - but that's a lot of boost for a single feat.

 

[Elon Tusk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what I feel I am hearing is that large PCs have never been done well in the past.
Okay, let's not look to the past for answers then.

A large size PC has more difficulties to play than one might first imagine:
- Any space 5' causes large to spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there, and it has disadvantage on attack rolls and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage while it’s in the smaller space.
- It can be flanked by significantly more enemies.
- Large size weapons, shields, armor, and potential other equipment should cost more and would likely be more difficult to obtain.
- Appropriate mounts would be less available.
- Hiding, cover, and line of sight & area of effect abilities are more problematic.
- Size small or smaller creatures can move through its space.

 

[Cyber-Dave]

I would call a half-ogre a monstrous race choice.
In fact, I did: "abilities due to their monstrous nature."

You missed the point. I was not trying to say that monstrous races don't need to try and be balanced. I was noting that the monstrous races did things like step out of the normal assumptions of class design in order to play with decisions that are either a) contentious or b) do things that are not commonly done, such as use mechanical penalties for flavour. You have chosen to emulate their design. Cool. The penalties to Int, however, do not balance the half-ogres benefits. They are merely flavour (if you want to take semantic issue with the word fluff).

Intelligence ability scores are mechanics not fluff; they may be less significant than other scores but mechanics nonetheless.
I don't see the "internal logic" of a large half-ogre/half-bugbear getting a reduction to Strength and Constitution when both of its parents had increases in those stats or an increase in Intelligence when a half-ogre only has a 7.

If you want to argue semantics, we can use the word "flavour" instead of fluff. In terms of a larger philosophical debate, I don't believe fluff and mechanics are as divorced as you think they are. I am not, however, interested in having that debate here. If you are interested in that subject, you can read such texts as Wardrip-Fruin's Expressive Processing. The point is, the penalty might be a "mechanic" insofar as you are defining it, and a penalty insofar as it reduces some mechanic, but it is a meaningless reduction that won't be felt by the builds that the rest of your mechanics support. As a result, it doesn't do anything to balance the race. Your penalty to "Intelligence" should be thought of as nothing more than flavour. It does nothing to balance a race which, when combined with its optimal class choices, will have a +2 to its primary and secondary stat choices and a +1d4/per attack to its primary source of damage. You are right, though. In the case of a Half-Ogre, a penalty to Strength or Constitution would not be internally consistent. I was not suggesting that you do that. I was merely noting that only a penalty to Strength or Constitution could act as a balancing factor for this race.

I think the problem with players asking why their half-ogres are different than the NPC race applies here as well.
Perhaps a Constitution reduction is needed as the MM half-ogre only has a 14, giving on one +2 score bonus; that's an easy fix.

Yea. So long as the race has no more than a +2 to one stat and a +1 to, at most, 2 other stats (and that is pushing it considering its other powers; I would really suggest a lone +2 stat adjustment if its going to have a constant +1d4 damage bump), you might be able to make it work.

No worries. As a monstrous PC, you wouldn't have to.

You are, again, choosing to miss the point. I would, for example, allow all of the new PC race choices from Volo's guide. I would not allow your race at the table in its current form. You asked for constructive critique. I am trying to give it to you. You have something workable. It still, however, needs more tweaking. I am trying to provide you with feedback as to what is currently not working.

That seems to defy "internal logic" again: is there an actual size difference between "large" and "oversized"?
We're talking about an 8' tall 450 pound half-ogre with a large long sword compared to an 8' tall 450 pound bugbear with a regular long sword; would there be a longsword in between those two weapons?

Honestly, considering the fact that you are working with the size stats of a bugbear, I would probably try and make the creature medium sized. I would probably then give it a racial feature that looked something like this: "Oversized: for all intents and purposes, the half-ogre counts as a large sized creature. When it wields large sized weapons, however, it deals the same damage as the weapon's medium sized equivalent +1d4. The half-ogre may still wield normal weapons without penalty." You, however, seem to really want to keep the "large" size as is. Given that fact, I have given you a few constructive suggestions. If you take the "oversized weapons" suggestions, then yes, you would be saying that there is a 1/2 size increase between medium and large weapons called "oversized," and that is what the half-ogre can use. If you take the second option, you would simply be letting the half-ogre use large weapons, but would be stating that it can't do as much damage with them as normal large creatures. What you don't, however, want to say is that large weapons (in general) do +1d4 damage when the rest of the game says that large weapons deal double the normal damage dice. It creates rules inconsistencies; it is not internally consistent.

I'm assuming you meant half-orgres instead of half-giants.
I think something like that would work, but the MM large-size half-ogre does get the double damage die and is only 8' tall; the MM large-size ogre is 9' to 10' tall and also gets the double damage die.

Yep. By choosing to create a half-giant PC race that doesn't get double damage dice, you have already created a minimal level of internal inconsistency. I don't like it. I wouldn't want to do that to my games. You, however, seem set on that choice, so I am trying to provide you with constructive criticism designed to minimize the issues wherever possible. As I said earlier, the only way I see to faithfully create a race like the half-ogre for PC would be with a few levels of a front end "race-as-class" design. After experimenting, it is the only thing that worked well for me. You are not me, though, so I am trying to give you constructive criticism within your desired constraints.

TL;DR--your original race's presentation is ok, but it is still a little too powerful, and it creates one too many rules inconsistencies in one area. This race should not have a +2 to both a primary and secondary stat. Overall, it is strong enough that it should not have more than a +2 to a primary stat and a +1 to a tertiary stat (not Con). The +1d4 damage bonus is strong enough that you should probably stick to a flat +2 bonus to a primary stat or a +1 bonus to a primary and a secondary stat. You should also avoid defining large weapons as weapons that deal +1d4 damage beyond their normal counterparts, as the rest of the game already defines them in another way.

 

[Cyber-Dave]

A large size PC has more difficulties to play than one might first imagine:
- Any space 5' causes large to spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there, and it has disadvantage on attack rolls and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage while it’s in the smaller space.
- It can be flanked by significantly more enemies.
- Large size weapons, shields, armor, and potential other equipment should cost more and would likely be more difficult to obtain.
- Appropriate mounts would be less available.
- Hiding, cover, and line of sight & area of effect abilities are more problematic.
- Size small or smaller creatures can move through its space.

We know. We are telling you that these penalties are not nearly as important as you seem to believe. Most encounter maps have enough spaces that the tactical disadvantage of fighting space will rarely come into effect. Encounter budgets and practical considerations will rarely result in additional creatures actually flanking the half-ogre, even if it is theoretically possible. After the first few levels of play, the additional costs will not affect the PC in an appreciable manner. The issue with mounts will affect story more than gameplay. What you say about hiding is true, but will merely result in the PC choosing to avoid building a character that wishes to hide. The fact that small sized creatures can move through its space will be virtually meaningless in almost all of the encounters the PC experiences.

 

[MechaPilot]

If I were inclined to create a penalty suited to allow the play of large characters, I would make the penalty disadvantage on initiative checks (because most really big creatures are relatively slow). Acting later typically affects all classes, unless the character is in a support role. The increased potential to suffer a full round of enemy attacks before taking your turn can be very serious, especially at early levels.

Another potential option is weapon-breaking. Large creatures are very strong, and there's no reason to expect typical D&D metalcraft to be exceptional. A large creature might break its weapon when it scores a crit. Or maybe on a roll equal to or less than one-fourth their Str score (at a minimum of one, obviously).

 

[Elon Tusk]

Cyber-Dave, I appreciate your input and thst of others.
I've already made a few changes based on your suggestions and am grateful to keep the conversation going (giving you XP).
I'm just pushing back the on a few things I disagree with or that others have pointed out do I can try to get the balance right.

The point of my half-ogre build was not because I wanted a half-ogre player in my game but because I wanted to try to make a large PC after getting some initial feedback in this thread.
There were several mentions of how double damage die and a racial class may not be the best choices so that led to what I created.
You mentioned not having two +2 stats so I'm removing the +1 Con for the base race.
I selected half-ogre because it is the obvious existing size large creature with relatively a low CR (I think adjusting hit points to a class and swapping out the double damage die reduce CR even more). I've since flipped thtough the MM and Volo's and don't see any better large candidates. Feel free to suggest if you do.

I'll work on some language for the 1d4 instead of extra die for large weapons.
I listed a half-ogre as getting initial large weapons (otherwise, what's the point), but - after that - additional large weapons come into the campaign through the DM.

I do still consider this a work in progress and am looking for another way to power it down just slighly.
I thoght about not having the subraces, but the MM lore for half-ogre just seems to fit so well with that, especially since subraces ability scores and minir features and make a half-ogre so much more interesting.

Perhaps a ban on the 1d4 for large range weapons?
This is not stated for large NPCs (although ogre & half-ogre have javelin listed as range/melee; technically a javelin is melee), but I cannot find large creatures with a range weaon.
Even giants only have thrown rocks.

A reduction in AC? maybe -2 because they are a bigger target?
But again, the MM NPCs don't have that.