Law and Chaos gone? Good Riddance!

[bonethug0108]

So while law and chaos or alignment as a whole doesn't bother me in the game, I can understand de-empasizing the rules, since they have always been rather subjective and a source of conflict for too many players. I would probably keep it in my campaign; I like having it, and I've never used it to rule-stomp.

This is exactly how I feel. I've never used it to hit players with the whammy stick, but I've had a dm do it to me and other players. It isn't me as dm or you as dm or many other responsible people here.

It is the d&d community as a whole that is suffering from it. Look at how many arguments you hear about from people's home games on the wotc boards(and likely here, though I'm new here so I wouldn't know).

Then look at all the arguments people get into on those(and likely these) boards and you can see the million and one ways that problems can arise because of the million and one different view points. No two people have the exact same view on all the alignments.

And sure, many long time players do adapt well enough so that it doesn't cause problems, but what about new people just starting out. If a new dm sees that the rules say if a character acts out of alignment he should lose his powers, what do you think the new dm will do? Does he have the foresight to do all the things experienced players do? Some may, but I would bet that most don't.

So now you have likely lost a bunch of potential d&d players because arguing isn't fun. The hobby suffers, sales slack off, and no more new d&d products. Then you run the risk of d&d being sold to a worse company(although it could turn out opposite).

Also, don't forget about all the *** hole dms that force you to play their way. Sure you can say, "Just find a new group." It is not that easy for ALOT of people. We have no hobby shops for 20 miles where I live, and b&n is the only local store that sells d&d. And I am their main d&d customer. I've seen 2 people besides me ever buy or even look at the d&d books, and they aren't exactly flying off the shelves. I don't think my situation is all that uncommon.

So for the sake of this hobby's furture alignment and other troublesome elements of the game need to change or go away. I hope they keep alignment meaningful, but I hope it is a far cry away from 3e's system.

 

[TPK]

There is also a different view on good and evil, which can also be found in Christian history (and apparently also in Starwars ), and being inspired from the Greek concept of "ideals".
Good and evil are not opposites. God equals good, and the farther away from god you are, the more evil you'll see (or be). There is no "balance" between good and evil. The only healthy state is pure good.

And I do believe someone is porting this augustinian view of Good and Evil into 4th ed. even as we speak. Devils and demons are no longer merely spiky, scaly, nasty critters who happen to come from the Planes of LE and CE, respectively.

Devils are now CORRUPTED angels.

Demons are now CORRUPTED elementals.

As in, very far from the divine state of perfection that is pure Good.

Personally, I like it.

 

[Mirtek]

But see, if absolute good was some eldritch force inimical to human life, then I wouldn't use the phrase "good" at all. Some other word should be chosen.

Absolute life is just as bad for human life. Just look what happens if you overstay your welcome on the positive energy plane. You die because of too much life

Cosmic good, pure good as exists in fantasy millieus and at the highest levels of some real-life spiritual traditions cannot be turned to evil.

It doesn't need to be turned evil, because it's already harmfull to mortals in it's natural state. I wouldn't recommend any mortal to try to visit the 7th heaven. Even if he could get past the guardian, the unshackled glory of the purest LG would blast his mortal frame to ash.

This also reminds me of some (Disney? Not sure if it really was Disney) cartoon I watched with my nephew. It was about some guy able to turn into a dragon and he meet two twin sisters descended from a great oracle. One could only see bad events while the other could only foretell good events.

The girl seeing only evil was the most merry person you can imagine, while the girl seeing only good was the most depressed person you can imagine. Because always having these vision of good made anything around her become dull and meaningless and she could take no joy of anything.

 

[Scribble]

Absolute life is just as bad for human life. Just look what happens if you overstay your welcome on the positive energy plane. You die because of too much life

Yes. Lack of alignment leaves room for ideas like a cult who believes that the positive material plane is the true state of enlightenment... And then facing off against one member of the cult that believes it's his job to open a nexus into the positive plane and force everyone into a better life of "enlightenment..."

 

[CleverNickName]

Personally, I like the alignment system. I suspect most of the people who hate it either are moral relativists to begin with who reject the idea of good and evil, or they're people who got rule-stomped by a DM over alignment issues.

I started this reply because I was going to argue with you...but the more I think about what you wrote, the more I agree with you.