Lawful Alignments and Classes

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

properly written-out code also allows the paladin's or monk's code to conflict with the rules observed by mainstream society, something that games often have trouble doing when a character is non-specifically lawful.

Unfortunately, WotC already wrote out a paladin code. If you incorporate that code, it can easily cause problems.

 

[Telas]

Unfortunately, WotC already wrote out a paladin code. If you incorporate that code, it can easily cause problems.

Have you got a link or sourcebook reference for that? I couldn't find one in any of the core books or on the WotC website, and I'm trying to avoid using too many splatbooks.

Thanks,

Telas

 

[shilsen]

Have you got a link or sourcebook reference for that? I couldn't find one in any of the core books or on the WotC website, and I'm trying to avoid using too many splatbooks.

Thanks,

Telas

I think he's referring to the short description of the paladin's code in the paladin class description.

 

[Darkness]

I think he's referring to the short description of the paladin's code in the paladin class description.

Yep. From the SRD:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

 

[Telas]

That's a good start, but I'm looking for more specific details from the player.

How will you treat your prisoners? In the middle of a dungeon?
At what point can you justify torture? To save the world? a country? a friend? never?
Do you kill noncombatants? Even ones that will grow up to kill innocents (like a baby beholder)?
Sleep poisons - can they be used to sneak past someone?
Are you allowed to flank your opponents so that your rogue can sneak attack?
How do you view the Undead? Even the intelligent ones?
How do you view collateral damage? Fireballs in town? Missile weapons in crowded areas?

And: What are the consequenses of breaking your code? How will you know what's "right"? Do extenuating circumstances affect the penalties?

This is just a beginning. If someone wants to play a Monk or Paladin, they'd better have a good concept of who they're playing, not just a stack of numbers.

No, I have no idea how this could conflict with what's in the PHB.

Telas

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think that with a properly-written, specific code of conduct I might allow monks to deviate from a Lawful alignment (as long as they follow their code).

 

[shilsen]

I think that with a properly-written, specific code of conduct I might allow monks to deviate from a Lawful alignment (as long as they follow their code).

Not to derail this into a law-chaos argument, but consistently following a code would make the monk lawful, so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Li Shenron]

Not to derail this into a law-chaos argument, but consistently following a code would make the monk lawful, so that shouldn't be an issue.

That's only if you allow full-lawful characters only. But at least there are still neutral characters, and I don't think that consistently following a code makes them lawful. We are all (hopefully) following the national laws, and we're not all lawful in the D&D sense.
I mean, following a code can be surely said to be a lawful thing, but it's not the only thing which matter.

 

[Li Shenron]

Ditto. However, from the SRD: The purchase and possession of poison is always illegal, and even in big cities it can be obtained only from specialized, less than reputable sources.

Definitely not lawful good....

IMHO including this sort of "rules" in the SRD was a bad mistake. In many games you can find towns where the law is different, which may make poison perfectly legal. We could say that the poison use against people is evil and likely unlawful as well, but purchase and possession? Since when it is illegal to buy rat poison for example?

That it is a common practice in most games is fine, but that it is part of the SRD and automatically considered "da rule" is just WotC's mistake.

 

[Telas]

That it is a common practice in most games is fine, but that it is part of the SRD and automatically considered "da rule" is just WotC's mistake.

It could be a mistake, but I think it's more of an overstatement. I suspect that they were trying to say poison is recognized by almost every government as an intent to commit murder. Since so many thrones change hands by the use of poison, even evil kingdoms (especially evil kingdoms?) would outlaw it.

Sure, you can buy rat poison, but you can't exactly smear that on a knife and attack someone with it. Besides, rat poison has an arguable use; Black Adder Venom probably doesn't.

I really hate to keep beating my own drum (well, OK, maybe I don't ), but conflicts like this would be avoided if lawful characters had to fill out their own "Code of Honor". Your Code allows poison? Cool, but every law enforcement officer in the region knows that, too. Expect a little more attention than the average Monk. :\

Telas

Edited to add: Li, you mentioned JKD earlier. I train at a JKD Concepts school, although my primary art is Kali. Bruce Lee also said that you should learn the rules before attempting to modify or break them; sometimes those rules are there for reasons you can't yet see.

T