legally scanned PDFs

[Treebore]

The only thing he is intending on doing that is illegal, I think, is when he sells the books. Having the receipt is all well and good, but if the law is the same for books as it is for CD's, DVD's, etc... If they ask you to show them the original and you don't have it, your in trouble. If you are ever nailed for breakiing the law, remember each book you cannot produce the original for is a separate offense.

Did those 3 lawyers address the specifics of that?

 

[sckeener]

The only thing he is intending on doing that is illegal, I think, is when he sells the books. Having the receipt is all well and good, but if the law is the same for books as it is for CD's, DVD's, etc... If they ask you to show them the original and you don't have it, your in trouble. If you are ever nailed for breakiing the law, remember each book you cannot produce the original for is a separate offense.

Did those 3 lawyers address the specifics of that?

Yes, they did. You have to have a receipt. The law (in the US) for CDs and DVDs is the same. You have to have a receipt. Even if you have the original CD, DVD, VHS, Software or book (heck anything) that is not proof of purchase. A CD, DVD, VHS, Software or book could be stolen or a very good fake. Only a receipt is proof of purchase. The example one lawyer gave me was for a windows XP cd. You could have the CD, the license #, have it registered with Microsoft and it would still be illegal if you do not have a receipt (he was a software ip attorney w/20 years in the field.) He also did a cavet that the likely hood of Mircosoft winning such a case in court though would be small. He was just saying the only way to completely stop the inquiry is to have the receipt. Having the original book means nothing. Having a receipt is the only way. I'd prefer to stay out of court, so completely stopping the inquiry is what I want.

I'm not selling books that I scan. Those books are destroyed in the process. I'm selling the books that I buy as PDFs from sites such as

http://shop.enworld.org/
http://paizo.com/store/downloads
http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?cPath=_1
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/index.php

They have purchase histories. They have my receipts. (Admittedly I'm not trusting them on this - Enworld DB crash ) It would be bad for their business if their customers were afraid to buy their products because they might someday need to prove where they got it from and couldn't.

I decided to buy my 1st/2nd edition (WoD, ars magica, etc.) books in PDF because it was taking too long to OCR and was frightening shredding books for scanning. I haven’t figured out how to get the pages away from the binding easily. Since I love my books, it really hurts to destroy them. My time is worth more.

However I’ve seen the benefits of PDFs, so I am going to continue.

Now for my 3rd/3.5 books or any other book I can not buy in PDF, I’m going to have to either buy another copy so I can get a receipt or not scan it.

 

[JustaPlayer]

I don't see scanning in the receipt as good either. I'm not a lawyer so what I say can be dung, but having a scanned receipt in the same pdf or even anoth pdf doesn't stop from having that same receipt distributed in a scan to other people. In short, how do you prove that receipt belongs to you unless it has credit info on it?

Also, keeping just the receipt doesn't prove your copy is not out the in someone elses hands.

 

[sckeener]

I don't see scanning in the receipt as good either. I'm not a lawyer so what I say can be dung, but having a scanned receipt in the same pdf or even anoth pdf doesn't stop from having that same receipt distributed in a scan to other people. In short, how do you prove that receipt belongs to you unless it has credit info on it?

one IP attorney said the receipt has to have information on it that links it to the person and book. So the receipt will need to have the name of the book (ISBN/UPC/something) and my name. Since I do not carry cash on me, I do not see this as a problem. If the store prints my entire credit card number information, then I'll black out everything except the last four digits before scanning.

Also, keeping just the receipt doesn't prove your copy is not out the in someone elses hands.

I'm not following you. Isn't that an issue for anyone that buys non-drm pdfs? or are you talking about the shredded book? It is illegal to sell a book that has been dismantled (at least in Texas.)

Maybe I should preface that I asked here because I was hoping someone already knew the answer. I provide technical support for over 700+ lawyers at an energy company (oops too many attorneys included staff in that count.) My parents are lawyers (admittedly my dad is family law and my mother is tax law.) One of my best DMs is a lawyer (admittedly he is a VP general counsel so he deals more with business than giving legal advice.) I have no shortage of lawyers to ask, but since this is a very narrow focus, I hoped someone else already knew the answer for this field, gaming.

 

[JustaPlayer]

I'm not following you. Isn't that an issue for anyone that buys non-drm pdfs? or are you talking about the shredded book? It is illegal to sell a book that has been dismantled (at least in Texas.)

Maybe I should preface that I asked here because I was hoping someone already knew the answer. I provide technical support for over 700+ lawyers at an energy company (oops too many attorneys included staff in that count.) My parents are lawyers (admittedly my dad is family law and my mother is tax law.) One of my best DMs is a lawyer (admittedly he is a VP general counsel so he deals more with business than giving legal advice.) I have no shortage of lawyers to ask, but since this is a very narrow focus, I hoped someone else already knew the answer for this field, gaming.

But if you only keep the receipt and not proof you destroyed the book then what to say you destroyed the book.

Also, most non-drm pdf books now come watermarked with name at the least, and some with tracking numbers. Since they are password locked that shouldn't be a problem. Also, you can trace the purcase at the online retailer.

Even though I don't keep receipts on my hard copies I can always trace most of them to Amazon which has my purcases back to forever.

 

[solkan_uk]

I still don't believe a receipt is considered infallible, I mean I could photocopy it, or buy a receipt book and fill it in myself.

But if that's American law then fair enough.

 

[sckeener]

But if you only keep the receipt and not proof you destroyed the book then what to say you destroyed the book.

My word until it can be proved otherwise. I have proof that I made the purchase with the receipt (my name & the book on the receipt). It does not matter the format that the book is currently in as long as I have that receipt. I could have photo copies of the book if I wanted and as long as I had a receipt it would be ok....because it is for my personal use. I do not have to have the original as long as I have the receipt. Take for example a VHS tape. You are entitled to have a backup vhs tape in case the original is destroyed. Lets say the original is destroyed...by say the classic family dog or a baby. You are still entitled to have that backup VHS as long as you have the receipt. If you don't have the receipt for the backup VHS tape, what is to say it is legal? A receipt is the only thing that matters and it should have your name & the the product name on it.

 

[SteveC]

To the original poster:
First of all, I'm very sorry about your situation. I have a number of friends who are going through divorces at the moment, and it is very difficult.

On what you want to do with your books, I think this is getting way too complicated. I'm going to give you practical advice because I can't give you legal advice.

It has been suggested that putting the books into storage is the best plan, which it sounds like you're going to do anyway. I would suggest just leaving it at that, because you may very well find yourself in a situation where you'll have plenty of space again to store and keep these books, and I think you might kick yourself for tearing them up and throwing them out when you're done.

I would also suggest checking to see if the books are available from the publisher as a PDF. If that's the case, pick up the PDF and support the industry...and keep your books!

If you decide that you're going to scan them, however, just do it. You're taking something that you purchased, scanning it and then throwing out the originals. You bought the book, it's your business what you do with it. Now if you upload the books to a P2P site or share them with all of your friends, that's something else entirely, and something I really don't recommend. Hold onto the receipts if you feel especially concered.

I think sometimes we get way too concerned about these issues. In the end, you bought the book, as long as you're not selling it or giving it away, game publishers have the same concern with you that the members of Genesis do based on the fact that I put Home by the Sea on a mix tape before had a CD player for my car. Actually, Genesis has more of a concern, because I made the mix tape and kept my original CD back in 1985.

Just my $.02....and I'm not a lawyer.

--Steve

 

[Kheti sa-Menik]

Agreed. I think everyone is getting far far too worked up about all this. Just scan them and be done with it. Don't bother with receipts and all that crap. Do what you have to do. Geez, don't freak out about this copyright and receipts and legality.

 

[jgbrowning]

Edit: didn't see that this was thread necromancy.

joe b.