LIfe Without Alignment

[Desdichado]

I'm sorry I was unclear- that was my point.

Instead of an alignment system set in rules mechanics, HERO uses the DM's particular campaign setting to reinforce good/evil roles.

I'm still a little unclear on the notion of "HERO using" that; as far as I'm concerned every RPG system with a competent DM uses that. Heck, real life uses the truism that actions have consequences. That's not something that needs codifying.

That said, I'm sorry to see the D&D system go. IME, alignment systems are less RP straitjacket and more guide to RP in a fantasy world in which Good and Evil, Law and Chaos are tangible forces.

In theory. In reality, the lack of clarity on exactly how they're supposed to be used has been one of the most contentious issues in the game and has probably wasted more gametime than any other issue ever published in D&D.

 

[Raduin711]

I'd actually say that's a little bit different from what I'd call an alignment system. I mean, it's not a descriptive trait that's set at character creation and considered unlikely to change; it's a gauge that starts at a default base and reacts to in-game choices.

For the descriptive end of it they have a character's Virtue and Vice. I didn't mention it before because they don't actually describe a character's moral compass. (even though it sounds like they do.) Virtue and Vice are indeed descriptive traits that are unlikely to change throughout the story.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm still a little unclear on the notion of "HERO using" that; as far as I'm concerned every RPG system with a competent DM uses that.

I was merely using HERO as an example of a system that doesn't use alignments. I could just as easily said GURPS.

In theory.

No, in actual practice. That is what IME- "In my experience"- means.

Has alignment been contentious? On the internet, it sure seems that way.

However, in 30 years of gaming, in 5 cities, in 3 states, I've seldom seen an alignment issue take up more than a few minutes of gametime. I've seen more time sucked up by unfamiliarity with combat rules, spells, or a PC's equipment list than alignment. Even "shopping trips" to town to prep for a particular adventure have taken up more time than alignment discussions.

I want to be perfectly clear here- I have no problem at all with alignment-free systems. HERO is, after all, my personal fave. However, I like D&D's alignment system and its one of the many reasons I play it more than other FRPGs.

 

[Spinachcat]

The lack of alignment will hurt D&D.

"Chaotic A$$hat" will become (even more) the default playstyle because there will not be a clearly defined moral line. New DMs especially will have trouble trying to maintain a heroic tone.

And most RPGs have alignment systems, just with different names. HERO and GURPS most certainly have alignment systems in their codes of conduct and other behavioral disads. Moreover, Champions had the default "superhero" codes very enforced in the assumed default 4 color setting. The first PC we meet - Crusader - has a Code vs. Killing.

L5R's honor system is a FAR stricter code than the D&D alignment system.

 

[Counterspin]

Bad players will be bad players. They weren't constrained by the alignment system, as you point out, so why bother. Do you really think that words in the book stop people who are being purposefully disruptive?

Anyway, I'd like to say that I actually like RIFTS alignments because they were hard limits. There really wasn't any room for argument, they set hard and fast rules about how far you character was willing to go on a variety of important topics (killing, lying, torture). Everything else about your character, such as his opinion about local law enforcement, was left open. More useful in my opinion, because it deals with things that don't generally come up during character creation, which means it's a tool to add new information to your character sheet, rather than a shaky categorization of your existing character.

 

[Desdichado]

No, in actual practice. That is what IME- "In my experience"- means.

I know what IME means. But I can easily counter your anecdotal evidence with mine, and many others that I've witnessed. When the anecdotal evidence fails to convince we return to theory.

 

[Desdichado]

"Chaotic A$$hat" will become (even more) the default playstyle because there will not be a clearly defined moral line. New DMs especially will have trouble trying to maintain a heroic tone.

Playing with asshats is usually its own punishment regardless of system. I have yet to see a system that makes asshats into non-asshats.

Alignment certainly hasn't had that effect in the least.

And most RPGs have alignment systems, just with different names. HERO and GURPS most certainly have alignment systems in their codes of conduct and other behavioral disads.

Sorry, I'm totally disagreeing with you there. I've seen, read and played both those games (and many others) and your assertion that they have an ingrained alignment system is completely false in the versions I've used.

I've also almost exclusively (even in D&D) played without alignment, and it does not turn non-asshats into asshats. It does give actual asshats new tools to mangle, though.

 

[Wormwood]

"Chaotic A$$hat" will become (even more) the default playstyle because there will not be a clearly defined moral line.

If the only reason the party isn't eating babies is because of the LG written on their sheet, then you have problems larger than the alignment system.

New DMs especially will have trouble trying to maintain a heroic tone.

Again, the importance of the social contract in gaming groups. Unless everyone is aboard for the same ride, there will be conflict---alignment system or no.

If the DM is the only one who wants a heroic game, the problem isn't with the other five guys.

 

[FourthBear]

"Chaotic A$$hat" will become (even more) the default playstyle because there will not be a clearly defined moral line. New DMs especially will have trouble trying to maintain a heroic tone.

I don't really understand how the alignment system prevents any of this. Do you explicitly forbid certain alignments to your players? If not, why didn't they pick Chaotic Creep anyway? If they picked another alignment and didn't play it correctly, how is that any kind of success for the alignment system? And it's funny, but I could have sworn that I've been hundreds of alignment discussions where it was emphatically claimed by many alignment system proponents that alignment was a descriptive tool, not a prescriptive punishment. Would you disagree with that? Is the purpose of alignment to keep players who would otherwise play Chaotic Creeps in line?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The lack of alignment will hurt D&D.

"Chaotic A$$hat" will become (even more) the default playstyle because there will not be a clearly defined moral line. New DMs especially will have trouble trying to maintain a heroic tone.

I'm sorry, have you played RPGs other than D&D? This is just completely untrue, Spinachat, it really is. There's no earthly reason why you should believe this unless you've consistently played with people whose real-world "alignment" is "Chaotic A$$hat" (ahem).

I mean, 99% of the "Chaotic A$$hat" or "morally questionable" stuff I've seen in D&D has been from players whose characters were nominally CG or LG, particularly LG. Most of the godawful munchkin "kill them all" play I've seen has been from nominally good characters.

And most RPGs have alignment systems, just with different names. HERO and GURPS most certainly have alignment systems in their codes of conduct and other behavioral disads. Moreover, Champions had the default "superhero" codes very enforced in the assumed default 4 color setting. The first PC we meet - Crusader - has a Code vs. Killing.

Are you seriously claiming GURPS "has an alignment system"? That's like claiming that the space-shuttle "has a jet engine". It's both literally wrong and a grotesque understatement of what it's system can do. As for HERO, so one SETTING in HERO tended to have 4-colour heroes? And this is the same as an alignment system how? What?

What about WoD? I've seen no more or less Chaotic A$$hattery in that than D&D, well, slightly less. Or Amber? Or Cyberpunk? Or Shadowrun? or WHFRP? Or, if you only want to talk about games with a "Heroic Tone", how about Earthdawn (was there an alignment system? I don't recall), or better yet, Mutants and Masterminds or Blue Rose or True20? Or I dunno, Conspiracy X? Over The Edge? HeroQuest? Gosh I could go on all day.

You've really gone beyond the pale with this "no alignment = bad play" nonsense. It's just provably wrong.