D&D 5E Light release schedule: More harm than good?

[Staffan]

Say we go with a book every two months. Fairly meaty book, it's going to have mechanics. They are not going to start banging out systemless books after all. Class options, new monsters, new magic items, etc, the list goes on.

After three years, now you have eighteen books. That's a very large page count. That's more than the entire 1e line and that took nearly ten years to achieve. Heck, it equals 1e after the second year.

Not every book has to be a big meaty hardback with lots and lots of rules.

You say that 18 books is "more than the entire 1e line". That is not true. The 1e line includes tons of adventures, all of "classic" Dragonlance, and a good chunk of Forgotten Realms material. For example, in 1985 the following books were released (bold signifies a larger-scale release - hardback, adventure compilation, or the like):

Unearthed Arcana, Oriental Adventures, Battlesystem miniature rules, C4: To Find a King, C3: The Lost Island of Castanamir, C5: The Bane of Llywelyn, H1: Bloodstone Pass, UK7: Dark Clouds Gather, T1-4: The Temple of Elemental Evil, I7: Baltron's Beacon, DL6: Dragons of Ice, DL7: Dragons of Light, DL8: Dragons of War, DL9: Dragons of Deceit, DL10: Dragons of Dreams, Battlesystem Fantasy Combat Supplement (Battle of Qualinost scenario), Lankhmar: City of Adventure, and CA1: Swords of the Undercity.

That's 18 products in a single year, five of which I'd consider large to medium-scale (though I'm not familiar with all of these).

No-one (well, almost no-one) is asking for a Complete Warrior-scale hardback every two months. We (or at least I) think something every month or two would be nice, with only one or two of those books being a big fat hardback.

 

[Nellisir]

While you certainly could define anything past the three core rulebooks "bloat", that isn't really what WotC and a significant portion of their fanbase is worried about.

I don't think I'm the one making that argument. Heck, I'm not calling anything bloat. I find it perjorative and so nonspecific as to be almost useless. The concept is accurate, but there are better ways to discuss it. Using bloat for all of them leads you down a path where everything is potentially bloat.

 

[dracomilan]

I remember back in the days we played for 10+ years with just the core AD&D rulebooks, the Forgotten Realms Adventures book and five issues of Dungeon Magazine. Still we created hundreds of spells, kits and magic items, without any need of 'official content'... Sometimes I wonder why people cannot just make up their own stuff anymore.

 

[BryonD]

I remember back in the days we played for 10+ years with just the core AD&D rulebooks, the Forgotten Realms Adventures book and five issues of Dungeon Magazine. Still we created hundreds of spells, kits and magic items, without any need of 'official content'... Sometimes I wonder why people cannot just make up their own stuff anymore.

The reality is that other games will be doing things to steal spotlight. We don't live "back in the day" we live in the now. If other games are using modern advancements to maintain hype and awareness, they will gain an advantage over games that don't. If you like a game and want to see it remain highly popular, easy to find other players, etc.... Then you should they are working to make that true.

You can still find groups playing 1E. So if you have a long term stable group, then none of this matters. You have everything you need. But, in that case, it should not matter to you either way.

For me, I love making my own stuff up. But that doesn't stand in the way of me also loving buying new stuff. Some I use. Some I trash. Some I modify. Some I take inspiration from. All of it I enjoy. (nearly all... )

 

[bmfrosty]

While you certainly could define anything past the three core rulebooks "bloat", that isn't really what WotC and a significant portion of their fanbase is worried about.

Additional adventures and additional monsters aren't really the bloat WotC is worried about. More monsters are just more options for the DM to craft adventures with . . . . I've never met a DM who's complained about "too many monster books". Although, towards the end of 3E it did seem that some of the critters in the last few monster books were, well, filler. Specific rules modules aren't serious bloat either, as they are very situational and don't add a ton of weight to the core rules.

Campaign settings aren't exactly bloat, but each individual setting (beyond the Realms) isn't desired by enough folks to make printing books (even e-printing) worthwhile. Greyhawk is awesome, but are there enough folks who would buy the new 5E campaign book to make it worth doing? Probably not.

It's character options that are the serious bloat issue. Character classes, subclasses, feats, weird weapons, backgrounds, spells, and magic items. When you *need* seven books to create the character you want, or have to wade through hundreds of options in an online character generator, that's the bloat problem. It's a bit of a perception issue rather than a reality issue, as you never truly need to purchase all of those options, but perception is reality . . . . if players feel like they need to purchase multiple splats to "keep up", their interest can diminish. Not to mention each splat sells less copy than the one previous.

I also think there is a "core book" bloat issue. The perception that to have a complete D&D collection includes not just the core three, but a Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes, Draconomicon, etc, etc . . . that can really be a dash of cold water to somebody interested in the game.

I think we'll get a lot of those products (or, at least, I hope we will), but on a much slower pace with higher quality control and an effort to minimize that perception of "bloat".

I think you're right on the money here.

Make it easy for the players. They only have to buy one book, and put that book front and center.
Make it flexible for the DMs. Help the DMs stay in control.

 

[MoonSong]

I remember back in the days we played for 10+ years with just the core AD&D rulebooks, the Forgotten Realms Adventures book and five issues of Dungeon Magazine. Still we created hundreds of spells, kits and magic items, without any need of 'official content'... Sometimes I wonder why people cannot just make up their own stuff anymore.

Because a big longterm stable gaming group is something of a luxury that not everybody has, many of us ask for official content because that is the only thing we can be sure of when most of your gaming comes from OP, conventions and on-line.

 

[dracomilan]

Because a big longterm stable gaming group is something of a luxury that not everybody has, many of us ask for official content because that is the only thing we can be sure of when most of your gaming comes from OP, conventions and on-line.

I know, I didn't want to sound condescending.
I had already posted a wish list of desired products in this thread, it's just that I really do not feel the need for rules supplements anymore (I had that urge back in the 3.x days, but it was a bad habit I dropped).

 

[Hussar]

You've now stretched the definition of "bloat" so far that is has become synonymous with "rules." That's preposterous. One could imagine, for example, a whole book with nothing but new rules about ships, navigation, sea hazards and underwater magic and it would add nothing to the Dreaded Bloat of Horror.

Let's roll with your example. A naval supplement, something right up my alley. Now, it would likely come with new backgrounds, variant classes for the PHB classes (after all, you want nautical style PC's to go with your naval supplement don't you?) new magic items, new feats, new spells, and new equipment. All of which interacts with every other supplement you pump out.

To me, that's what causes rules bloat. Not any single supplement. That would be ridiculous. But, now you have a Naval Supplement, Desert Supplement, Forests Supplement, Underdark Supplement, Cold Supplement, and so on. You're never going to just have one supplement like this. It's going to be an entire line. And, you've just added half a dozen new classes (or Paths in 5e), backgrounds, boatload of spells and magic items (heh, see what I did there, boatload ) and so on.

Look, it's pretty easy to point to various lines and see where the rules bloat starts coming in. It's never just one book, or at least rarely one book. It's the fact that you now have eighteen books and players start cherry picking across books. This has happened every single time in every single iteration of D&D. I cannot understand how anyone could look at 18 books for a game and not think bloat.

Good grief, I'm hoping that D&D 5e has 18 books for its ENTIRE LINE. Nothing more. Just 18 books over its lifespan. Would be fantastic. Because they tried it your way. They tried it your way FOUR TIMES (3e, 3.5, 4e, Essentials) and it failed every single time. Three year editions. Every time. Even with a much reduced production schedule in 4e it still didn't work. Isn't it the definition of insanity to keep trying the same thing and expect different results?

 

[Nellisir]

Good grief, I'm hoping that D&D 5e has 18 books for its ENTIRE LINE. Nothing more. Just 18 books over its lifespan. Would be fantastic. Because they tried it your way. They tried it your way FOUR TIMES (3e, 3.5, 4e, Essentials) and it failed every single time. Three year editions. Every time. Even with a much reduced production schedule in 4e it still didn't work. Isn't it the definition of insanity to keep trying the same thing and expect different results?

I get your point here. Out of curiosity, how does Paizo & Pathfinder play into this theory? If PF is an extension of 3.5, then it's been rolling for more than 3 years. And if it's not, then it's been rolling for....well, I have a 4th printing of the Core Rulebook, dated 2010. So we're working on 5-6 years.

 

[BryonD]

Good grief, I'm hoping that D&D 5e has 18 books for its ENTIRE LINE. Nothing more. Just 18 books over its lifespan. Would be fantastic. Because they tried it your way. They tried it your way FOUR TIMES (3e, 3.5, 4e, Essentials) and it failed every single time. Three year editions. Every time. Even with a much reduced production schedule in 4e it still didn't work. Isn't it the definition of insanity to keep trying the same thing and expect different results?

I think calling 3E a failure is an interesting view of history.

And 3 years from 3E to 3.5, 5 Years 3.5 to 4E [plus PF on-going), 2 years 4E to Essentials (anyone recall when equating essentials to 3.5 was a heresy?), 2 years Essentials to 5E public playtest starting.

Then you consider the whole economy of D20 / 3PPs and calling it a failure is simply delusional.