D&D (2024) Limiting Short Rests to 2x/day

[Umbran]

And that inability to take criticism...

Mod Note:
You cannot expect people to accept your supposed "criticism" when it reads like an excuse to treat people badly.

Treat the people better, please and thanks.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And that inability to take criticism is probably why you invented a playstyle.

Ad hominem.

Interesting how you know we invented something. You don't know about me enough to make assumptions about me. You were dismissive (badwrongfun) in your first sentence, so I chose to ignore what you wrote.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

There's a key difference between 4E and 5E here, which is that where 4E gave you a list of one-shot powers, 5E generally gives you a pool of resources (spell slots, ki points, etc.) with multiple ways to spend them.

For example, warlocks would generally lead off each fight with a spell; but choosing the spell, and maneuvering to maximize its impact, would be a challenge of its own. You wouldn't be just ticking off boxes on a list.

And that is what I like way better in 5e. I still don't want recharges after each rest. I like resource mangement and find a game without any resource atrition boring.
We liked 4e for quite a while. And still there was that feeling that every fight was somehow meaningless (although very exciting on its own).

 

[NaturalZero]

explaining why the LR classes don't want to wait is the part you are avoiding.

Because the other players don't want to wait to go through the next door, or whatever. It's such a common, basic phenomenon that's weird that you seem to be fishing for some specific response out of me.

Are you avoiding it because those why's tend to involve a scenario where ignoring the LR class players attempting to head consequences paints the warlock/SR class player being overruled in a poor light?

Ah. It's because you keep using words like "entitled" to describe short rest classes. This is the exact inter-party conflict that happens because we moved to 1 hour short rests in 5e.

You're literally making, in huge walls of text, the exact argument that people have been making for why we need 5 minute short rests.

1 hour shorts rest cause resentment and problems between players where none existed when they were 5 minutes, and you keep illustrating that in your posts.

 

[tetrasodium]

Because the other players don't want to wait to go through the next door, or whatever. It's such a common, basic phenomenon that's weird that you seem to be fishing for some specific response out of me.


Ah. It's because you keep using words like "entitled" to describe short rest classes. This is the exact inter-party conflict that happens because we moved to 1 hour short rests in 5e.

You're literally making, in huge walls of text, the exact argument that people have been making for why we need 5 minute short rests.

1 hour shorts rest cause resentment and problems between players where none existed when they were 5 minutes, and you keep illustrating that in your posts.

Clearly the warlock/SR class player in your example is so caught up in maximizing their own personal power that they are unable to accept that the other players are even capable of having a good reason to deny the warlock/SR class player a SR & said warlock/SR class player is being a jerk by refusing to accept that they are part of a group rather than the main character. 5 Moving to 5 minute short rests will not improve that problem, in fact it would make things worse.

 

[NaturalZero]

Clearly the warlock/SR class player in your example is so caught up in maximizing their own personal power that they are unable to accept that the other players are even capable of having a good reason to deny the warlock/SR class player a SR & said warlock/SR class player is being a jerk by refusing to accept that they are part of a group rather than the main character. 5 Moving to 5 minute short rests will not improve that problem, in fact it would make things worse.

So now your argument is not even that one hour short rests are good, it's that a player is a jerk for wanting to wait a whole 5 minutes to catch their breath? If we're to the point where some people at the table consistently can't wait 5 minutes for another player to catch up with their basic features, the short rest player is clearly not the villain at all in these hypotheticals.

We had a whole edition where we play tested 5 minute short rests and, despite the other holes in that system, that part worked great and was never a problem. You keep using words like "entitled", "jerk", and "villain". Those concepts were never even used in the context of short rests in 4e. 5e introduced one hour short rests and introduced this whole problem.

Over and over you keep hammering on the idea of inter-party conflict caused by rest mechanics. You keep making strong arguments for 5 minute short rests.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Any possible consequence is generally "part of the RP". That Why behind the rest of the group not wanting to is SR critical. Keep going & name some that unmask the villain in your scenario. Why you are avoiding the discussion that would stem from those apparently inconvenient details in order to simply blame LR classes?

I'm not even sure what discussion it is you keep insisting I'm avoiding.

I'm not blaming the classes, I'm blaming the bad design behind hour long short rests and daily attrition in general.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Because the other players don't want to wait to go through the next door, or whatever. It's such a common, basic phenomenon that's weird that you seem to be fishing for some specific response out of me.

Ah. It's because you keep using words like "entitled" to describe short rest classes. This is the exact inter-party conflict that happens because we moved to 1 hour short rests in 5e.

You're literally making, in huge walls of text, the exact argument that people have been making for why we need 5 minute short rests.

1 hour shorts rest cause resentment and problems between players where none existed when they were 5 minutes, and you keep illustrating that in your posts.

Ugh. Why does this argument hit me? Crap. Maybe there is a good reason for a short rest to be shorter than an hour... I've seen the 1 hour Short Rest debate enough to know that Pact Magic bugged me.

What if a Short Rest was designed to be a little more flexible by adding functionality on a scale? What if the rechargey Short Rest was shorter, but it is divorced from the Hit Die and Exhaustion healing, which could be an additional possible add-on to a Short Rest if you have the time and need? One could build in the reasons and benefits of these options. Let me take a stab at it.

Mirt the Moneylender's Rules for Party R&R. A Suggested Standard Structure for Short Rests for your Adventuring Party. This is trained into every mercenary company that Mirt founded.

• Short Rest: "When we say a Short Rest, we mean it. You have 5 minutes for a short breather before pressing on."
  • This allows the Party members to:
    1. Catch Your Breath. Recharge abilities that recharge on a "Short Rest."
  • I suggest a limit of 2 Short Rests Per Day, like BG3. (I know some like Short Rests recharging PBx/day but some designs might need to change to reflect how fast and easy Short Rests would be. Maybe as an alternate rule?)
• Recuperate & Reflect: "If necessary, you may extend a Short Rest to 1 hour for a little Recuperation & Reflection regarding your recent challenges. If you can't more forward after an hour, consider a Long Rest."
  • This allows the Party members to:
    1. Tend to Trauma. The Party takes care of their recent injuries, whether from physical or metaphysical harm. The party can spend Hit Dice to recover HP.
    2. Eat & Drink Something. Everybody just eat something. Feed the Fire. Whether it's Otik's Leftover Spiced Potatoes or iron rations. Wash it down with whatever water or grog you got. Do both and lose 1 point of exhaustion from that 1-10 scale I like.
    3. Reflect on Your Results. Talk to your Party. Consider how you got to where you are, right now. Did you handle that right? Process and affirm your purpose.
    4. Make a (New) Plan. Determine the next step forward on your chosen path.
    5. Gather your Party and Venture Forth. Argue over who goes first and last, and roll out.
• Long Rest. Rest for 8 hours. Sleep at least 6 of that. Still engage in all the R&R.
  • This allows the Party members to:
    1. Recuperate & Reflect. As above.
    2. Make History. Chronicle your day and thoughts in a song or journal so that your accomplishments are recorded. And remember, this is for posterity, so be honest.
    3. Get Some Shuteye. Set a watch rotation so everyone can sleep at least 6 hours.
    4. Fully Rest. After 8 hours, recover all your HD and HP, and recharge all your abilities that recharge on a "Long Rest."

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The 5e DMG always had the option for shorter and long rests. I always thought that there is no best way to do it.
So put different options in the PHB instead of the DMG and be done with it.

 

[tetrasodium]

So now your argument is not even that one hour short rests are good, it's that a player is a jerk for wanting to wait a whole 5 minutes to catch their breath? If we're to the point where some people at the table consistently can't wait 5 minutes for another player to catch up w0ith their basic features, the short rest player is clearly not the villain at all in these hypotheticals.

We had a whole edition where we play tested 5 minute short rests and, despite the other holes in that system, that part worked great and was never a problem. You keep using words like "entitled", "jerk", and "villain". Those concepts were never even used in the context of short rests in 4e. 5e introduced one hour short rests and introduced this whole problem.

Over and over you keep hammering on the idea of inter-party conflict caused by rest mechanics. You keep making strong arguments for 5 minute short rests.

No not at all. I've pointed out the difference between implying the warlock/SR class player has been wronged by the LR class players with "the other/long rest classes don't want to wait" vrs accepting that the warlock/SR class player is not entitled a SR & is simply not able to take a SR because doing so would cause the group and/or other players to suffer some consequence. In the case of accepting that the consequence should be avoided.

If a LR class player like wizard sorcerer or cleric were to behave in the same way & burn all of their top end spell slots as fast as possible then quickly demand a LR while simply complaining that the only problem is "the rest of the group doesn't want to wait" that player would rightfully be told to be more judicious in their slot use & to do things like use more cantrips while being reminded of how the 5mwd is simply not fun or reasonable to expect. Unlike that hypothetical LR class player the warlock & other SR classes get powerful at will abilities intended to support them when they too need to be more judicious in their slot use or simply can't expect to eat the consequence of taking a SR.

Just like the wizard/sorcerer/cleric who is unreasonable expecting to nova all of their spell slots as quickly as possible before taking a rest is being unreasonable in how they are playing, the warlock & other SR class players doing the same are being just as unreasonable. Given those powerful at-will abilities & the reason they are provided to warlock & other SR classes, when the warlock/SR class player refuses to even acknowledge that it's the consequence rather than being wronged by the whims of other players preventing that short rest they are very clearly being abusive to both their fellow GM and more specifically their fellow players by by viewing them as the enemy.

Five minute short rests are not reasonable because short rest classes accumulate too much power both in their SR recovery abilities as well as their at-will abilities. Granting them five minute SRs would be an absolute endorsement of the 5mwd and make the very reason they are given powerful at-will abilities a farce.

I'm not even sure what discussion it is you keep insisting I'm avoiding.

I'm not blaming the classes, I'm blaming the bad design behind hour long short rests and daily attrition in general.

You can see some of them mentionedonce more above and in the indented ispoilered bits of the examples in that post you partially quoted. Treating the other players as enemies who are preventing the warlock from taking a SR simply because they don't want to wait instead of acknowledging that there is a consequence preventing the SR is an incredibly toxic way of approaching a collaborative game like d&d.