Limiting Short Rests to 2x/day

[Zehnseiter]

5E combat, monster design, and PC resources are all balanced around the idea of an adventuring day being 6-8 medium encounters with 2 short rests and 1 long rest. That’s why BG3 did that.

I am currently playing Baldur's Gate currently and I have my doubts about that. You can almost always take a long rest after any combat. Imho Larian put in the short rest a as nod to those familiar with D&D5 and not much more. The computer game is balanced per single combat encounter and it is trivial to have all or most of your resources at any combat.

IF BG 3 prouves anything then how united the 5E attrition (an the general) sytem is for computer games. Larian invented three new progress systems for characters just to make it work: A boatload of magic items with entirely new rule subsystems, tadpole mechanics and short rest weapon powers on top of it. There is a huge smokescreen going on in this game that hides that they rebuild a lot of the character progression.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yeah, they clarified a very common scenario:

The short rest classes want to have their class features actually work, but the long rest classes don't want to waste an hour on something they get nothing for.

This is still asking someone else to supply the reason why they feel it takes too long. The players don't need to sit around for an hour for the PCs to complete that rest, because it only takes as long as the gm confirming that the rest is complete. That leaves "there is a consequence they want to avoid but it leads into somewhere at least sticky YTA adjacent territory worthy of discussion that makes it difficult to support SR class design" or"there is no reason and the other players are being jerks".

I could name quite a few consequences that the long rest classes are wanting to avoid. All of them lead to a discussion on design encouraging the SR class/warlock to push the line of reasonable play for a rest crossing the line in some way that deserves discussion. If you don't want to explain why they feel it takes too long and feel there is no possible reason other than "they get nothing" then I'd say it's obvious they are jerk players and a class should not be designed around the assumption that everyone else at the table is a jerk.

So if you aren't simply saying that LE class players should be assumed jerks... what are the consequences of this "very common scenario" that makes the LR class players say they "don't want to wait" and how is the warlock/SR class player not being a jerk to them by pushing for them to eat those consequences?

 

[Vaalingrade]

This is still asking someone else to supply the reason why they feel it takes too long. The players don't need to sit around for an hour for the PCs to complete that rest, because it only takes as long as the gm confirming that the rest is complete.

The characters can still not want to waste an entire hour of their lives. Like as part of the RP.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And it would be back to trying to use all your buttons as early as possible so you don't waste anything.

If you were doing this in 4e and found it a problem then there was either something wrong with your build or something wrong with your play. It was, of course, best play for a Slayer, which is fine if you want to play a Slayer, and if you don't there is something wrong with the build in that it doesn't match what you want to play. Likewise if you're playing a (non-Monk) psionicist you're probably going to do this but that's why they are among the least liked classes.

But the main thing you should be worried about wasting are the bad guys. And I've had situations where a simple at will has been more effective than any of my encounter powers and sometimes even my dailies would have been. Especially if that at will was Storm Pillar - or had a push or other forced movement attached so that we were corralling the bad guys for the AoEs.

Your critique here makes about as much sense and for exactly the same reason as the wizard who starts every fight by burning their most powerful spells because they might otherwise waste them if there isn't a fight later. I mean they can do that - but the main thing that statement is saying about the wizard is that the speaker is just bad at playing D&D spellcasters.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well, yes, it is certainly not an accurate portrayal of reality; if one were trying to be realistic, the benefits of a short rest would be overlaid on top of accumulating fatigue penalties which require a long rest to erase.

So what you mean is that you can recover short rest abilities and hit points but not long rest abilities or healing surges on a long rest so your abilities and endurance both go down

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If you were doing this in 4e and found it a problem then there was either something wrong with your build or something wrong with your play.

I stopped reading here.
Telling us that we played wrong is not OK.

No. It was just not the right game for us.
We tried to make it really work for nearly its entire life span with a lot of different characters and adventures and DMs, and we stopped shortly before D&Dnext was announced.

So I am very allowed to say I don't want that for 5e 2024.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I stopped reading here.
Telling us that we played wrong is not OK.

And that inability to take criticism is probably why you invented a playstyle that was both boring and ineffective. But that's down to your group and not a criticism of the game.

There are two "right" ways to play a game - the way that give most fun and the way that makes you as a group most effective. And part of the art of game design is to try to align the two. If you were playing in a weird way you found fun I wouldn't criticise that. If you were playing in a CharOp way that had tedious spreadsheets I would criticise the game for encouraging that.

But you weren't. You came up with something that you found unfun and was tactically inept.

We tried to make it really work for nearly its entire life span with a lot of different characters and adventures and DMs, and we stopped shortly before D&Dnext was announced.

And you can try again and again to make recipies with eggs. But if you have got into this weird groupthink mindset where all your cooking contains the shell none of them will taste good. That's not a problem with the eggs or even the recipes.

So I am very allowed to say I don't want that for 5e 2024.

And I am very allowed to say I don't want shell in my scrambled egg but it's not the recipe or the ingredients at fault.

 

[Dausuul]

And it would be back to trying to use all your buttons as early as possible so you don't waste anything.

There's a key difference between 4E and 5E here, which is that where 4E gave you a list of one-shot powers, 5E generally gives you a pool of resources (spell slots, ki points, etc.) with multiple ways to spend them.

For example, warlocks would generally lead off each fight with a spell; but choosing the spell, and maneuvering to maximize its impact, would be a challenge of its own. You wouldn't be just ticking off boxes on a list.

 

[tetrasodium]

Nothing was changed or really needed an explanation. The long rest classes don't want to wait and hour for the short rest classes, and so they don't necessarily get a short rest. It's a straightforward situation that happens at most tables I've ever played at and happened to me this past week when i was the only one damaged and need to roll HD.

Your hypothetical was that IF you're playing high level and have arcanum, IF you're party is usually willing to wait an hour for your slots to regen, and IF you have those slots available for invocations, and IF you're lucky enough to have just the right version of a social contract, the warlock is great. In reality, the stars often don't line up for the short rest classes and that's probably why you see 5-15 minutes winning by a landslide in the poll. This is exactly why they added the fast recovery in the playtest; afer 10 years, players recognized that it's a problem with the system.


The party doesn't want to short rest best because they're too long, and so they overrule the fighter or warlock.

No situations where changed, no goalposts moved. I was literally explaining both the "what" and the "why" and thought it was dead obvious that these things were a cause and effect.

explaining why the LR classes don't want to wait is the part you are avoiding. Are you avoiding it because those why's tend to involve a scenario where ignoring the LR class players attempting to head consequences paints the warlock/SR class player being overruled in a poor light?

The characters can still not want to waste an entire hour of their lives. Like as part of the RP.

Any possible consequence is generally "part of the RP". That Why behind the rest of the group not wanting to is SR critical. Keep going & name some that unmask the villain in your scenario. Why you are avoiding the discussion that would stem from those apparently inconvenient details in order to simply blame LR classes?

If the warlock/SR player wants to ignore & dismiss those possible consequences asa thing dismissable under being merely "part of the RP". Doing that might make it easy for the warlock/SR class player to keep avoiding fault by painting LR class players as villains standing in the way of an entitled SR. Ifwhen that is done however the rest of the group is unfairly forced to check the warlock/SR class player's efforts to SR in order to avoid those consequences, it's the warlock/SR class player who is being unreasonable in not checking themselves "as part of the RP". If there is not any consequences the LR class players are trying to avoid "the warlock/SR class player is playing with jerks" or is quite likely deserving of a YTA label in refusing to even acknowledge the consequence.

Since you seem unwilling to mention the why

Spoiler: Here are a few examples to get you started

• We have buffs running, we are going to carry them forward into the next fight
  • the Warlock/SR player should be more cognizant of the group they are treating as sidekicks & pace themselves or accept that everyone else at the table also deserve to enjoy their shiny toys. Lets be honest, the warlock/SR class player could have them running to but probably cares less when they can recover the slot used to cast it & more in the rest.
• There is a doom clock running, we don't want the [bad thing]* to complete because we were waiting for you to take a rest. The Warlock/SR player literally has powerful at will abilities they can use for this exact kind of situation
  • A doom clock doesn't exist if players aren't aware of it ahead of time. The Warlock/SR player should have internalized the doom clock and made an effort to pace their expenditures better by doing things like perhaps conserving their SR resources & relying on the powerful at will abilities they have till they reach a major fight or burn through their pool at a more judicious rate.
• The warlock/SR PC player is trying to take an excessive number of rests that ultimately feels abusive to their sidekickized allies[/ispoiler]
  • The warlock/SR class player aren't playing the main character & should be more cognizant of the embarrassment of riches they are demanding
• The badguys are getting away and the LR class players don't want to let that happen just so the warlock/SR class player can take a rest.
  • The warlock/SR class player must have been there to notice the bad guys getting away & is being unreasonable expecting the gm to either make the getting away wait for a rest or is being unreasonable expecting the group to allow them to get away just to avoid limiting themselves to their still powerful at-will abilities.
• There is no reason the LR players just don't want their characters to wait
  • LR players at said table: "dude, we explained it to you, we don't want to take this rest because we are trying to avoid this specific consequence that you are ignoring"
• The rest of the group are simply jerks
  • That's so weird to find a full group of jerks... Don't play with jerks

* princess dies, the ritual completes, the portal opens, the assassination target does their thing & is out of the party's reach or the assassins the party wants to stop kill the target, so on & so forth.

There are probably other reasons why as well, but they seem to be something that you are unwilling to admit.

 

[tetrasodium]

There's a key difference between 4E and 5E here, which is that where 4E gave you a list of one-shot powers, 5E generally gives you a pool of resources (spell slots, ki points, etc.) with multiple ways to spend them.

For example, warlocks would generally lead off each fight with a spell; but choosing the spell, and maneuvering to maximize its impact, would be a challenge of its own. You wouldn't be just ticking off boxes on a list.

3.x was similar in a lot of ways. You didn't just toss a fireball on some skeletons simply because you could, but you might have slice do something to hinder the big guy for Bob to handle while Dave went hulk smash on the skeletons to keep them from turning Alice into a corpse shaped pincushion with their bows. In 5e slice doesn't care and the group just fights whatever they feel like with no real need to be concerned about changing tactics beyond MOAR DPR & healing word.... take a rest if the tank runs dry, you're guaranteed eventual success and basically zero possible chance of it leading in death spiral type directions as long as you just keep trying till the gm gives up.