List of Broken Powers

[Lord Ernie]

In this particular encounter, the BBEG was a solo. So, it dropped a very high percentage of the encounter out the window (it was N+3, definitely dropped to at least N=1). That's just free XP for the taking with zero real risk.

Even if a given BBEG fight uses an Elite, it's still doing the equivalent of an auto-kill. The Elite is being turned into a Standard, hence, one monster equivalent instead of two. Again, pretty much free XP.

So we've got a level +2 fight here, where the monsters can't do anything but straight up damage? I tend to pack my hard fights with a good mix of stun, dominate, or dazing effects, in addition to some protection from save ends conditions. Solo's, especially, tend to be either very mobile, or heavily status inducing, along with some MM3-dose of effect-ending capabilities.

As for it using both Wis and Cha, this is true. This particular Cleric is fairly vulnerable for Fort and Reflex, but not all Clerics have to be that way. Starting stat of 16+2 Wis and 16 Cha would still prevent 8 damage and the Cleric could focus on other non-Cha stats for all future stat boosts.

True, but that means he's about 3-4 points behind to start with, and by the time those other stat boosts start counting in, the whole 'the cleric powers are broken' thing tends to go away. Seriously, 3 to 4 points of defense is nothing to sneeze at.

He should if he could.

Agreed.

We both know that this isn't going to happen 99% of the time.

The monster is neutered. The Defender and Controller have too many ways to prevent the monster from getting near the Cleric.

He isn't going to pound the Cleric into the ground at all and typically, the Cleric isn't going to use this power in round one unless he has a strong notion that the foe is a badass. One way to know this is that if the foe had a stunning type power, he often would have used it already. Even if the foe has a stunning power remaining, there's still the fact that the other PCs aren't going to let the foe anywhere near the Cleric.

Again, most of the solo's and elites I've used come with lots of area and burst attacks, and a good bit of status effects, so I haven't run into this particular problem.

Heh... you've actually given me food for thought. Now I'm interested to see how they hold up against an enemy that largely just deals heavy damage, instead of relying on status effects.

I don't regard solos as something that I have to use as singleton foes.. but I often do use them that way, because there are a lot of monsters that I don't regard as "social." Dragons are a good example. I've always felt that a dragon should neither need nor want allies--it's just not how they roll. I don't want to have to pad my dragons out with minions or regular monsters to make them fit challenges for the party.

I admit it's not always an easy fit, but it can be worked in. Dragons, in particular, are extremely powerful, but also stereotypically vain, greedy, lazy, and powerhungry. A dragon at the head of a worshipping cult, a dragon as the leader or king of a nation,... there's usually a good way to give them minions.

Admittedly, if dragons are lonely predators that live and hunt alone, it's a mite trickier.

Ok, let's look at Moment of Glory.

<snip>

Apart from Moment of Glory being a Close Blast, not a Close Burst, which limits its range somewhat, this seems like a fair analysis. Our party was past level 5 by the time Divine Power was released, so I never encountered it at low level. The note on ongoing damage is a good one, too; even a few points of damage resistance make a lot of difference there.

From everything I hear, though, yes, it's very strong and can more or less end a low-level encounter if used correctly. In my experience, it doesn't scale quite as well as you're saying it does, though, what with increase in status effects and dramatic increase in monster damage in early Paragon, which make the effect both less pronounced and more difficult to sustain.

So yeah, on Moment of Glory I'm willing to hand it to you. Where Cloak of Courage is more of a playstyle/approach choice (much like stacking lots of temporary HP with an Artificer), and Astral Condemnation only really does its thing against Solo's/Elite's without good status effects and support, Moment of Glory beats both that type of encounter and mass enemies, and is overly strong at low level - the Shaman level 2 utility "Protective Roots" has a similar problem, and doesn't even require a Sustain.

What would you say if the power would be upped to level 5? Would that make it more fair?

 

[Psikus]

Ok, let's look at Moment of Glory.

The time to use it is in an N+2 or stronger encounter.

Average NPC damage at low level tends to be ~level+7.5 for single target attacks, ~level+5.5 for area attacks with the MM3 damage system.
(...)
That changes the NPC damage to ~level+2.5 for single target attacks, ~level+0.5 for area attacks. In N+2 encounters, foes will tend to be in the level +1 to +3 range. So, 4.5 to 6.5 damage and 2.5 to 4.5 respectively for level 1 PCs.

That means that the Cleric stops almost 50% of single target damage and almost 60% of area target damage in an N+2 encounter. Just shy of 40% and 50% for an N+4 encounter.

That effectively doubles the number of PC attacks against the NPCs.

Nice analysis. It bears mentioning that higher level encounters doesn't automatically translate into higher level monsters (since you can just add more enemies), so the power's effectiveness in tough fights can be a bit higher than your numbers suggest. It also wrecks any monster based on multiple weak attacks (rather than a single, strong one), and it trivializes minions (but then again, what doesn't?). On the other hand, it's not as exciting for brute-heavy fights.

What would you say if the power would be upped to level 5? Would that make it more fair?

Yep, that would do the trick. The other option would be to tone down the resistance a bit - as resist 3 it would be acceptable at the lowest levels (where it's really dangerous currently), though it would likely become retrain fodder at late heroic levels. Having the resistance scale (say, with Cha mod) could be a decent compromise.

 

[Dice4Hire]

A lot of these broken powers would be a lot more manageable if they did not scale so well with levels. A lot of the time in 4E you just stick with a low level power because it is still very good even 20 levels higher. Psionics is particularly bad, but most classes have some power that just rocks from whatever level you first get it on up the tiers.

 

[KarinsDad]

So we've got a level +2 fight here, where the monsters can't do anything but straight up damage? I tend to pack my hard fights with a good mix of stun, dominate, or dazing effects, in addition to some protection from save ends conditions. Solo's, especially, tend to be either very mobile, or heavily status inducing, along with some MM3-dose of effect-ending capabilities.

Dazing doesn't work. Dominate and Stun could if a) the NPC is close enough to the Cleric to use it, b) the NPC still has that type of power (they tend to be per encounter), and c) the NPC actually hits with the uber condition power. Course, that assumes that the other PCs do not have a way to give the Cleric a free saving throw. Most non-Leaders don't have this, but there are ways.

Sure. The NPCs might get lucky once in a while, but a high percentage of the time, the Cleric nerfs the BBEG and then backs away and the BBEG cannot do much about it. His alllies might be able to, but the allies aren't really the threat.

So yeah, on Moment of Glory I'm willing to hand it to you. Where Cloak of Courage is more of a playstyle/approach choice (much like stacking lots of temporary HP with an Artificer), and Astral Condemnation only really does its thing against Solo's/Elite's without good status effects and support, Moment of Glory beats both that type of encounter and mass enemies, and is overly strong at low level - the Shaman level 2 utility "Protective Roots" has a similar problem, and doesn't even require a Sustain.

Cloak of Courage is according to the rules which the original designer did not realize. And even at the cost of a Standard Action each time, that's still a lot of free healing surges. The simple solution for it is to make it a Daily power and then it gives ~4 healing surges (depending on party size), just slightly stronger than the same level Cure Critical Wounds, but at the cost of a Standard Action.

We have a 2nd level Shaman in our game where the player wants to swap out Protective Roots. I had to explain to the player how strong it really is. Not quite on par with Moment of Glory (it actually starts beating Moment of Glory possibly at Paragon not for the same amount of damage resisted, but due to the fact that it does not require a sustain).

What would you say if the power would be upped to level 5? Would that make it more fair?

At that level, it stops < 1/3 instead of < 1/2 at level 1. Still pretty darn potent, but obviously better. I'd drop it from broken to honorable mention at that point. I should also put Protective Roots in the Honorable Mention category.

 

[Ryujin]

How would you as a player feel if your Striker started doing 1/3rd average damage automatically without a to hit roll? If the DM said "I'm sorry, the monster just nerfed your PC. And, there are several such monsters in this dungeon, so expect to have it cast on your again tomorrow.".

About the same, I would imagine, as when the DM says, "You just did 50% damage to that wraith, because it's insubstantial. Oh, wait; that's 1/4 because he hit you, so you're also weakened."

In other words, not very good. Yeah, sounds broken to me.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree, Cloak of Courage as a daily is right about on par with other powers of the same level. Nice, but certainly not broken, and a good choice for say a melee cleric or some other build that might be action starved and wants a power that can be used ahead of time and just works or could be dropped in a tough fight if needed.

 

[KarinsDad]

About the same, I would imagine, as when the DM says, "You just did 50% damage to that wraith, because it's insubstantial. Oh, wait; that's 1/4 because he hit you, so you're also weakened."

In other words, not very good. Yeah, sounds broken to me.

In addition, the wraith has fewer hit points than normal. So although the weakened PC is doing less damage, he has less damage that he has to do as well. There's a balancing factor there to the potent monster ability. When the Cleric uses Astral Condemnation, the PCs do not have fewer hit points than normal for the BBEG to carve through.