Little Known Rules of D&D

[Hypersmurf]

Sorry, didn't mean to be... :\

Don't worry - your post isn't what prompted it.

-Hyp.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'm talking about what the spell says - it says Str, Dex, and Con depend on the new body. It doesn't say that Int, Wis, and Cha do.

Also compare the Polymorph spell: "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."

The Magic Jar spell: "You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities."

You can Polymorph into an Ooze, and your Charisma stays the same. Your Intelligence stays the same, even though there isn't a brain any more.

You can Magic Jar into someone really ugly, and your Charisma stays up at your own 17.

Note that these spells explicitly state what happens to your Int, Wis and Cha. Reincarnate does not state this. It mentions class abilities, feats, skill ranks, class, BAB, base saves, and hit points. It then states to eliminate the racial adjustments, then apply the adjustments (to Str, Dex and Con) to the "remaining" ability scores. This confuses things even more, since the word remaining seems to imply that only Int, Wis, and Cha adjustments are eliminated.

Unfortunate choice of wording, since the intent seems fairly clear based on the context, but reading the RAW, all racial adjustments are eliminated. That's what the words say.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body."

And they do. The next eplicit instructions don't change that in any way.

"First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race)"

This simply couldn't be more clear. "Eliminate the subject's racial modifiers." It would have been trivial to say, as they did in some many other places, "except for mental stats," but they didn't write that. So, by the rules, you eliminate racial modifiers. Period. Full stop.

"and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."

Again, very straightforward. As promised in the preceding sentence, Stength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores are being modified by the new body.

Int, Wis, and Cha don't depend on the new body.

Except, of course, to the extent that they're racial modifiers that are to be stripped away when instructed to do so by the rules as written.

Again, the house rule you use might very well be the intent behind the rule. I personally think it's a close call. But your house rule isn't what the rules actually say to do.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And they do. The next eplicit instructions don't change that in any way.

This simply couldn't be more clear. "Eliminate the subject's racial modifiers." It would have been trivial to say, as they did in some many other places, "except for mental stats," but they didn't write that. So, by the rules, you eliminate racial modifiers. Period. Full stop.

The sentence describes how Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body - you eliminate racial modifiers.

It doesn't describe how Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores depend on the new body.

The sentence is part of a paragraph.

This confuses things even more, since the word remaining seems to imply that only Int, Wis, and Cha adjustments are eliminated.

If I have a Str score of 16, including my +2 racial modifier, and I eliminate that racial modifier, my remaining score is 14.

-Hyp.

 

[Fifth Element]

The sentence describes how Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body - you eliminate racial modifiers.

No, those are two separate sentences; you can't simply conflate them. Nothing is explicitly stated about Int, Wis and Cha.

It's unclear at best.

 

[Fifth Element]

If I have a Str score of 16, including my +2 racial modifier, and I eliminate that racial modifier, my remaining score is 14.

That clears up that confusion. That returns us to the strict reading of the RAW, which does not address Int, Wis and Cha explicitly. It does explicitly state that racial adjustments are eliminated, without explicitly restricting which ones.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, those are two separate sentences; you can't simply conflate them.

So let's take, say, the Fly spell as an example.

"Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds."

These are two separate sentences; you can't simply conflate them. The subject of a fly spell floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. In addition, should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly.

Does it not make sense to assume that the downward-floating element of the spell occurs at such time as the spell duration expires while the subject is still aloft? I hesitate to conflate separate sentences in such a fashion, but I must confess it's how I've always read that paragraph in the past...

-Hyp.

 

[Fifth Element]

So let's take, say, the Fly spell as an example.

"Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds."

I didn't mean you can't conflate sentences. I meant you can't necessarily conflate the two specific sentences in question. The second sentence can stand on its own. It does not require the first sentence to make sense, as in your fly example.

In the end, I agree with your interpretation, but strict RAW does not necessarily support it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I didn't mean you can't conflate sentences. I meant you can't necessarily conflate the two specific sentences in question. The second sentence can stand on its own. It does not require the first sentence to make sense, as in your fly example.

The second sentence in the Fly example doesn't require the first sentence to make sense. You cast Fly, and the subject floats downward for 1d6 rounds.

You need not conflate the sentences in order to get a result that is not entirely nonsensical, but doing so provides a more sensible result, and is not forbidden by the workings of the English language.

Likewise in Reincarnate; you can choose to read the two sentences in isolation, but it is not necessary to do so... and by reading them together instead, you achieve a more sensible result.

Indeed, in order to read them in isolation, they should really appear in separate paragraphs.

-Hyp.

 

[Fifth Element]

Indeed, in order to read them in isolation, they should really appear in separate paragraphs.

Yes they should. Doesn't mean they will, necessarily, given that the rules are written and typeset by people, who often make mistakes.

Again, we agree in the interpretation, but we must realize it is an interpretation, since the RAW are unclear.