D&D (2024) Longsword finesse when used 2H

[gorice]

The damage increase is pretty small, and you have to give up a shield to get it. I think the bigger issue is that it doesn't work thematically with sneak attack. But, neither do rapiers.

Actually, some kind of iaijitsu thing would be much more apt than bumbling around trying to stab someone in the back with a rapier.

 

[Bill Zebub]

it give Dex-based martial access to a d10 weapon, which so far was only in the purview of Str-based characters (except heavy crossbow). I'm not really in the Dex-always-steals-the-show camp so I dont really care, but there's that...

Instead of 2d6. So it’s not an increase. It’s a downgrade.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Actually, some kind of iaijitsu thing would be much more apt than bumbling around trying to stab someone in the back with a rapier.

Totally.

 

[Laurefindel]

Instead of 2d6. So it’s not an increase. It’s a downgrade.

You mean instead of 2d6+stat bonus twice instead of 1d10+stat bonus! Actually, you'd even be better with d8+stat+2 from dueling than straight d10 +stat but hey, I'm not here to tell you that it makes Dex OP, I'm just stating that this is the biggest departure from current rules.

 

[Bill Zebub]

You mean instead of 2d6+stat bonus twice instead of 1d10+stat bonus! Actually, you'd even be better with d8+stat+2 from dueling than straight d10 +stat but hey, I'm not here to tell you that it makes Dex OP, I'm just stating that this is the biggest departure from current rules.

Can you explain what you are saying here? I think you are saying that when you include fighting style the 2H longsword gets even worse than I was saying, except that you took the position that it buffs Dex builds. So I’m confused.

(The reason I didn’t include fighting style is that I’m assuming this would mostly be a colorful but sub-optimal melee option for archers with Archery style.)

EDIT: If dueling style applied to this (“when you are wielding a single melee weapon that is one handed or versatile…”) I would consider playing a Dex fighter.

 

[Laurefindel]

Sorry I'll try to be clearer.

My overall position is that I like the idea of finesse on versatile longsword, and that I don't think Dex is already too powerful as is.

At the same time, I also concedes that Dex builds would now have access to a d10 weapon, which didn't used to be the case. For me it doesn't cause any issues because rapier+dueling is already equivalent (if not superior) to versatile longsword+great-weapon fighting, and two-weapon fighting might even be better than both with the removal of bonus action requirement.

Without fighting styles, straight d10 is objectively better than straight d8. I'm not convinced that two attacks at d6 each, with stat bonus applying to the first attack only, is strictly superior to (1x) d10+stat, but its probably slightly better than 1d8+stat. Comparative average damage probably vary given what target number is required, but I'm not that good at probabilities. Throw a shield in there and one-handed d8 returns as king.

So all in all, I do believe that finesse on versatile longsword is a boost to Dex builds, but a rather modest and benign one.

 

[Marandahir]

I think we need to differentiate weapons more, not make them more samey.

In addition, this is the old Ninja-Katanas argument we've heard for decades. But think of it this way: Katanas, Broadswords, and Bastard swords (the historic inspirations of the D&D Longsword) are HEAVY. To perform a rapid iaijutsu strike the likes of Rurouni Kenshin or Sephiroth, you still need enough arm muscular strength to make the momentum. It's NOT like a Rapier where the weight is less important and thus damage is almost entirely based on your manual dexterity.

I think an Iaijutsu feat, martial maneuver, and/or class feature; probably best as a maneuver or feat that can be activated via class or subclass features and can be thus accessed by certain Fighters, Monks, Rogues, etc a la Fighting Styles. I could see Way of Shadow and Way of the Kensei Monks, Phantom Rogues and Assassin Rogues, as well as various Fighters like Samurais or Battle Masters having access to this feat or maneuver. In this case, I'd allow you to add your STR and DEX mods to the attack roll when making the Iaijutsu attack, thus representing the quick strike's higher likelihood of accuracy, and I'd allow the attack to be made when the weapon hasn't been drawn (drawing the weapon as part of the same action). But I'd limit its usage via proficiency bonus and/or superiority dice, depending on the path taken (and I'm not going to hone in right now whether this should be a short rest or long rest ability; just that it should NOT be a basic attack you can make all day with Longswords).

 

[Bill Zebub]

Sorry I'll try to be clearer.

My overall position is that I like the idea of finesse on versatile longsword, and that I don't think Dex is already too powerful as is.

At the same time, I also concedes that Dex builds would now have access to a d10 weapon, which didn't used to be the case. For me it doesn't cause any issues because rapier+dueling is already equivalent (if not superior) to versatile longsword+great-weapon fighting, and two-weapon fighting might even be better than both with the removal of bonus action requirement.

Without fighting styles, straight d10 is objectively better than straight d8. I'm not convinced that two attacks at d6 each, with stat bonus applying to the first attack only, is strictly superior to (1x) d10+stat, but its probably slightly better than 1d8+stat. Comparative average damage probably vary given what target number is required, but I'm not that good at probabilities. Throw a shield in there and one-handed d8 returns as king.

So all in all, I do believe that finesse on versatile longsword is a boost to Dex builds, but a rather modest and benign one.

2d6 averages 7, while 1d10 averages 5.5, so if we are adding stat once then dual wielding is superior (especially for rogues who want to improve chances of getting sneak attack).

Getting d10 damage this way is only superior to:

• Rapier with no shield and no fighting style (which is now strictly inferior to two short swords)
• Sword and board with no fighting style, if you value +1 damage over +2 AC.

 

[Bill Zebub]

This doesn’t pass the 5e sniff test, but one “realism” touch could be either that you need Str 10 to do this, or that negative Str modifiers would apply.

 

[Laurefindel]

2d6 averages 7, while 1d10 averages 5.5, so if we are adding stat once then dual wielding is superior (especially for rogues who want to improve chances of getting sneak attack).

Getting d10 damage this way is only superior to:

• Rapier with no shield and no fighting style (which is now strictly inferior to two short swords)
• Sword and board with no fighting style, if you value +1 damage over +2 AC.

2d6 averages 7 when both attacks hit. The probabilities that one attack out of two hits is higher than a that of a single attack landing, but the probabilities that both attacks hit are lower than that of a single attack landing a hit.

If we assume that the first attack hits in both cases, d6 averages 3.5+stat, d10 averages 5.5+stat. Then, the second attack might or might not hit, so let's say your target number is 11 on the d20 to hit the AC, that's 1 chances out of 2, averaging to 1.75 damage. The lower the TN, the more this second attack contributes to average damage.

Then again it's possible that only the second attack hits, in which case TWF nets a 3.5 damage over one attack at d10 (because there's no bonus to damage from stat). So my maths are not the greatest but eyeballing it overall, two attacks at 1d6, with only the first adding stat bonus to damage, probably washes out with one attack at 1d10+stat bonus.

[edit] with discriminary bonus damage or bonus damage dice such as sneak attack, I agree that (2x) 1d6 is better that (1x) 1d10