Planescape Looking for sources on how alignments phsyically function as substances

[GlyphicEngineer]

Ok so. This is a bit difficult to put into words, but what I'm trying to find is published sources of information on how the D&D moral alignments physically interact with the world. Not in terms of ethics- I'm not looking to start a debate on whether a particular action qualifies as good or evil- but rather in terms of how the alignments manifest as substances. Particularly in the setting-neutral shared cosmology of Planescape.

For example, there's a recurring theme in D&D that capital-E Evil never truly goes away- if you destroy a demon, the evil that comprises its body is simply reabsorbed by the Abyss and could later reform as some new horror, and the same goes for various other manifestations of Evil-as-substance. This implies that moral substances are conserved quantities that cannot be created or destroyed, only changed to different states. Yet, outsiders are capable of changing their alignments- rising or falling- and even planar layers can slide between planes if their moral charge changes significantly. So does this mean that each moral substance is itself only a specialized state of some unifying substance? And if so, what are the precise laws that govern its changes?

As another example, if a person commits enough actions of moral good, evil, law, or chaos, this will change how magic interacts with them, causing certain spells and abilities (detect evil) to produce different results/readings. This implies that morally charged action produces some physical change in a person's soul. So what laws govern how a person's physical actions affect them on a spiritual level?

I'm trying to find as many sources as possible to shed light on these sorts of interactions. I don't expect there to be many sources that directly address the metaphysics- although I welcome any that you can share!- but I'm sure that there are many examples of specific moral-physical interactions, which I could study to find the shared laws that underpin them. My hope is to eventually devise a full moral metaphysics for D&D, tying into my preexisting metaphysics of magic.
Does anyone have any key sources to share that might shed light on this topic?

 

[Celebrim]

I think it would be a mistake to imagine the authors of D&D as complex moral philosophers offering coherent takes.

Probably the single biggest problem with alignment that has plagued it since the beginning is that it was a moral system without any real underpinnings or without a lot of discussion to get everyone on the same page about what it meant. Gygax I think was the least incoherent, but he was also very brief and it's not clear what he's going for as it sounds like tautology to most people -"Good promotes weal."

As such, I think you are very much going to be on your own here.

If there is some unifying indestructible substance than let's call that "spirit". You might also do some reading in Plato and his adherents as much or more than Planescape. I think it's fair to say that D&D alignments correspond in some fashion to Forms, but you are going to have to deal with the fact that the realms of pure forms in D&D aren't themselves pure, implying there is some deeper structure to the universe that is unexplored.

One problem you are immediately going to run up against is that D&D frequently borrows ideas from real world beliefs systems but divorces them from the cosmologies that support the terms it is talking about. So for example, it borrows "fallen angels" as an idea but not the world views that constructs that idea, leading I think to the idea just not making any sense. I personally detest the idea that outsiders are just fancy sorts of mortals with similar and relatable desires.

D&D is a kitchen sink universe and you are going to have a hard time making it so that it doesn't have contradictions. One approach you can take is that the writings about how things work, to the extent TSR/WotC ever provided such, represent in universe writings that are biased or inaccurate or incomplete understanding. But as much as I approve of your project to create a coherent metaphysical framework for your setting, I think you are ultimately homebrewing. Published RPG material is going to be little use to you.

 

[GlyphicEngineer]

I think it would be a mistake to imagine the authors of D&D as complex moral philosophers offering coherent takes.

Probably the single biggest problem with alignment that has plagued it since the beginning is that it was a moral system without any real underpinnings or without a lot of discussion to get everyone on the same page about what it meant. Gygax I think was the least incoherent, but he was also very brief and it's not clear what he's going for as it sounds like tautology to most people -"Good promotes weal."

As such, I think you are very much going to be on your own here.

If there is some unifying indestructible substance than let's call that "spirit". You might also do some reading in Plato and his adherents as much or more than Planescape. I think it's fair to say that D&D alignments correspond in some fashion to Forms, but you are going to have to deal with the fact that the realms of pure forms in D&D aren't themselves pure, implying there is some deeper structure to the universe that is unexplored.

One problem you are immediately going to run up against is that D&D frequently borrows ideas from real world beliefs systems but divorces them from the cosmologies that support the terms it is talking about. So for example, it borrows "fallen angels" as an idea but not the world views that constructs that idea, leading I think to the idea just not making any sense. I personally detest the idea that outsiders are just fancy sorts of mortals with similar and relatable desires.

D&D is a kitchen sink universe and you are going to have a hard time making it so that it doesn't have contradictions. One approach you can take is that the writings about how things work, to the extent TSR/WotC ever provided such, represent in universe writings that are biased or inaccurate or incomplete understanding. But as much as I approve of your project to create a coherent metaphysical framework for your setting, I think you are ultimately homebrewing. Published RPG material is going to be little use to you.

Celebrim, thank you for your response! I absolutely agree that there is no existing common metaphysics to D&D/Planescape. It's a work by many authors, many of whom likely gave no thought to metaphysics, and those few that did will undoubtedly contradict one another. My aim isn't to discover some pre-existing metaphysics hidden in the lore, but to construct a "best-fit" metaphysics drawing upon the lore for inspiration. In that respect, I absolutely am homebrewing, but I'd like it to be a homebrew with at least some grounding in existing material. It would be awkward if I were to make assertions in my metaphysics which were directly at odds with some fundamental element of the setting.

With regards to Plato, I can see where you're coming from- the Outer Planes and their denizens could be treated as a sort of in-between emanation, more Ideal than the Material but less so than the true world of Forms (as represented by whatever lies beyond the highest reaches of Mount Celestia or the deepest pits of the Abyss). However, I'd still be interested in primary sources that flesh out the properties of moral substances, which can't be entirely explained by Plato. As such, any recommendations for official sourcebooks, articles, etc. that deal with that topic would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I can't think of D&D substances, but Warhammer had warpstone, and RuneQuest has truestone and ... slimestone (?).

 

[GlyphicEngineer]

I can't think of D&D substances, but Warhammer had warpstone, and RuneQuest has truestone and ... slimestone (?).

I'm afraid D&D is specifically what I'm looking for. Thank you though!

 

[Celebrim]

Celebrim, thank you for your response! I absolutely agree that there is no existing common metaphysics to D&D/Planescape. It's a work by many authors, many of whom likely gave no thought to metaphysics, and those few that did will undoubtedly contradict one another. My aim isn't to discover some pre-existing metaphysics hidden in the lore, but to construct a "best-fit" metaphysics drawing upon the lore for inspiration. In that respect, I absolutely am homebrewing, but I'd like it to be a homebrew with at least some grounding in existing material. It would be awkward if I were to make assertions in my metaphysics which were directly at odds with some fundamental element of the setting.

The good news is that if you did, you'd be in good company, in that it never bothered the official writers of the setting to introduce self-contradictory elements. I was always bothered by the fact that the planes were both supposedly absolutes and also solopist in that what you believed about them shaped how they were. That is for example, if enough people believed something was good or something was evil, then it became so. It would be entirely in character of a Chaotic Neutral plane to be solopist and shaped by belief, since such philosophy would assert that there is no truth save what you create for yourself. But it would be a denial of everything that a lawful neutral believes in were it so. Thus, to suggest Solopism as a universal trait is to suggest the CN's are objectively correct and all the other alignments are just mass delusions.

This is one of the many cases of the individual writers asserting consciously or unconsciously their own philosophical biases. And as you note, since we have many authors over the course of many editions, the result is an incoherent mess.