Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Intrope]

It depends on the age of the dragon but generally cities are strong enough to repel or pose a serious thread to most dragons., With the "20 always hits" rule, 500 level1 archers each firing a +1 arrow /greater magic weapon) will score enough hits on any dragon to kill it. And that doesn't even take the level 14+ characters into account which live in a typical D&D city.

I can see larger cities having the ability to cast 10 GMW spells to dole out 500 temporary +1 arrows--but that would be a pretty tricky operation logistically (you'd have to find the casters/scroll guys, marshall the archers, dole out the arrows, and position them where they can all get their one shot in). Not only that, it's inadequate for CR8 and above Chromatics (avg damage -> 112.5 won't kill at CR8+).

For small cities and towns, I'm not seeing this as being a viable strategy. It's clever, though. The two biggest issues here are: can the town get enough warning to enact the plan in time, and can they do it repeatedly in case of head fakes by the dragon?

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

They must be if they are only good for attacking small villages. Saving villages are adventure for heroic 1-10 level adventurers.

Derren, this is getting more ridiculous with each post. We've already seen a snapshot of an encounter with a dragon. It's got over 1000 hp. It's not vulnerable to cold despite being fire-based. It can loose a breath weapon and make three attacks, all as free actions. Said breath weapon can also apparently dispel or ignore elemental resistances to it. It's got an AC of 49 -- even not knowing attack bonuses, I have a hard time seeing mobs of people getting +30 to their attack rolls... and even that only gives them a 10% chance to hit. We have absolutely no reason to believe that they'll only be threats to small villages.

You seem to be taking a bizarre assessment of the situation -- that is, that dragons are exactly the same as they are in 3e except that they have no spells, that magic is exactly the same as it is in 3e, and that cities are exactly the same as they are in 3e. Yes, if you take a 3.5 dragon and just strip away his spellcasting, his CR drops. Whoopty-friggin'-do. We've already seen that different abilities have been stepped up in the place of that. WotC would have to be idiots to just delete the spells and say "Okay, done with design!" They aren't, and we've seen more changes than that.

Similarly, you can't just assume that because a 17th level Wizard has certain tools at his disposal in 3.5 that a dragon will need defenses against them in 4E. We know magic is changing. We have no idea how impressive disguise, movement, or buff spells/skills will be -- at this point, there's pretty much no justification to say "He doesn't have Alarm! He's doomed!" Will anyone have Alarm? Maybe not. Invisibility? Might be a fairly exclusive ability. Greater Magic Weapon? I'd even peg that at unlikely. Scry'n'Fry? We already know that flying is significantly more difficult -- presumably these two are, as well.

And then there's cities. 3E had a lot of rules for who went where, and it often resulted in having a lot of fairly-high-leveled characters in PC classes. And then there's FR, which seems to ignore even those conventions and add in fistfulls of epic mages on top. Given that having gobs of off-duty megaheroes is pretty counterintuitive to the "points of light" scheme and that we already know that FR's mage herd is getting thinned, it isn't hard to imagine that city-building is going to yield pretty different results.

So no. Given what we've seen already, I see absolutely no need for magic in a dragon, and the pseudo-context you've created where you pull the problems with 3.5 together with rampant (and ocassionaly incorrect) speculation of 4E doesn't even begin to change that.

 

[Propheous_D]

Dragons do not have scent and blindsense goes only 60 ft. far. And even if the DM rules that the blindsense will wake a dragon when someone enters the radius the adventurers can still set up themselves around the dragon and prepare so that the dragon does not have a chance anyway.

And how would the dragon use this "social engineering"? How would it manipulate others? Without magic to send messages or alter its form it can't talk with persons of power without revealing its nature. Even when it uses minions this can be quite hard (Try to manipulate someonw by sending a kobold as messanger.
So to affect the world the dragon has to reveal itself if it has no magic. And as you said a known dragon is a dead dragon. Also minions would be a huge achilles heel in this case. They are either weak to be easily defeated and interrogated or strong and a threat for the dragon (running the show).

*sighs in a grand way giving the impression of a teacher who is tried by the stubborness of a student who just is not opening his mind*

Blindsight 60 ft = 120ft radius chamber for sleeping. No possible way to sneak up on dragon with out his attention being generated. All entrances to chambers are plugged thus requiring some strength and noise to remove, less they are disintegrated. To further allow for situations were plugs are disintigrated there is a heavy object on the top of the plug that would fall when the plug failed thus making a loud noise, temor, or displacement of material alerting the dragon.

Simple non-magical and VERY effective at keeping the dragon alive and alert to intruders. Can it be penetrated of course, but then again any defence can be penetrated.

The next part communication.

Why do people require dragons to take human form to communicate to thier operatives? Once a dragon interests one individual he can EASILY with his treasure gather an entire army and network with very little effort. As for getting in touch with his cohorts that is again easily done through messengers, and SIGNS. When the fire is raised on the hill north at dusk you know I shall be calling upon you. Similarily when the green smoke rises from the chimney of your home I know you have something to report to me. We meet at the prearranged clearing where I simply fly to.


One more thing we are talking about spells that make a wizard about 5-10th level or so. WHY can't a dragon simply make a deal or befriend such a wizard. They are small weak and snackable to a dragon, while the dragon can offer them access to power, wealth, protection, components, amd most importantly KNOWLEDGE.

Example:
Wizard and his 2 body guards are traveling form one town to the other. The dragon swoops in eats said weak bodygaurds and snatches young wizard to take to a rocky ledge were he starts his deal making. If the wizard seems uninterested well he is boney but atleast he might be tasty.
Example 2:
Good dragon lands before a local hedge wizard who has been frequenting his woods. He simply talks with said wizard and they rendevous now and again to discuss the weather and offer each other assitance and mutual benefit.

Nothing anyone has said here makes me think that anything is lost by a dragon not having some crappy levels in spell casting.

Oh yeah which person said a dragon can not escape a combat... THEY CAN FLY!!!!!!!!! while alot of adventures can as well something tells me that the dragon stands a good chance of winning a chase either by cunningly seperating the foes or lining them up for a nice beath weapon or two.

 

[Tzarevitch]

It depends on the age of the dragon but generally cities are strong enough to repel or pose a serious thread to most dragons., With the "20 always hits" rule, 500 level1 archers each firing a +1 arrow /greater magic weapon) will score enough hits on any dragon to kill it. And that doesn't even take the level 14+ characters into account which live in a typical D&D city.

OMG this topic is still going? And it has spread to a new thread to boot. Well, I have nothing better to do at the moment.

First of all that is a LOT of assumption that you will get that many archers ready to shoot WITH magic arrows without a good bit of advance warning. Only an idiot of a dragon would ever give the city that kind of chance to get ready.

Here is what will actually happen
1. Dragon gets pissed off at the city for some reason. Maybe they didn't pay their tribute on time or something.

2. Dragon takes off and flies to attack the city at night when the mortals can't see well (and giving it a miss chance). Not wanting to give the pathetic mortals time to flee or any chance to spot it, it comes in low and away from the main transport links (rivers, roads etc.). Without potent magic at their disposal (some sort of divinatory magic alerting them that the dragon will attack today) and with darkness and typical guard alertness, (playing cards, drinking, daydreaming or just looking the wrong way because guard duty is boring) the dragon isn't spotted until extremely close into the city.

3. Fear and indecision sets in among the spotting guards. OMG the dragon is out. Where is it going? Is it going to attack? (Minutes pass to confirm that it IS approaching to attack, as the guards do not want to sound a false alarm).

4. The guards sound the alarm (speaking tubes or bells or something). Assuming a special signal for "the dragon is attacking, this is no joke," and if the troops are very well drilled and have had some recent practice to keep them sharp, a decent portion of its defenders start rousing themselves from whatever they were doing, suit up, get their weapons and leave their homes/barracks and attempt to marshall at a location. Hopefully enough archers are actually in the city and not deployed to guard positions outside.

Unfortunately for the nearest wall guards, they don't live to see it as flames engulf them. Being 4th or so level maybe, they can't hope to survive even if they save. The dragon takes care to set fire to everything flamable for maximum terror and destruction and maximum concealment from smoke. The city then does what non-modern cities historically did when confronted with fire . . . they burn . . . a lot . . and very quickly.

5. The population realizes that the attack is real and the dragon is upon them and they do what they do best - PANIC!. People flee everywhere they think is safe. The weight of panicking crowds severly hampers the defense. Fear being contageous, some of the defenders even rout and flee themselves. Others are knocked down or pushed aside or succomb to smoke or fire or collapsing buildings.

6. Meanwhile the dragon roars in delight and burns everything and everyone it can. Smoke and fire are everywhere. Smoke stings the eyes, and clogs the lungs. The dragon burns any group that looks like it is forming to attack. Then when it is satisfied it flies off while the city burns.

In conclusion, your supposition about the 500 archers isn't going to happen. The city's best chance actually is that a group of adventurers or other high level individuals who are practiced in this sort of thing survived the surprise attack and went into action quickly. The city army's strength is in numbers and no dragon will give enough warning to build up the numbers to defeat it. Even then they wouldn't face good odds unless more powerful than the dragon because they'd have no prep time. Casters would be down spells, armor-users wouldn't have gear on (or necessarily even nearby) etc. They'd be better off waiting and pursuing the dragon to its lair.

Watch Reign of Fire or Dragonslayer or simply Tora, Tora, Tora (for a typical response to a surprise attack) sometime and you will see how hard it is to fight a dragon that you didn't see coming or to rally any defense in the face of a surprise attack. Speed, surprise and general terror are powerful weapons and a dragon doesn't need magic to employ them.

And the dragon in this example has NO minions to fight or simply spready discord or sabotage the defense.

Tzarevitch

 

[Mistwell]

So just to be clear, Dragons lose innate spell casting, and spell casting is not the same as using rituals. We do not have confirmation that Dragons do not perform rituals, nor confirmation of what exactly a ritual can achieve. Is that all correct?

 

[Tzarevitch]

So just to be clear, Dragons lose innate spell casting, and spell casting is not the same as using rituals. We do not have confirmation that Dragons do not perform rituals, nor confirmation of what exactly a ritual can achieve. Is that all correct?

That is correct. It is also likely that dragons can pick up caster levels if they want to, they just don't come with them by default.

Tzarevitch

 

[Green Knight]

What are those mysterious messengers who are in contact with those important people doing in such a wild area which apparently doesn't contain anything. That just begs for a closer look (not only into the area but also what messages are cerried and who is receiving them).

1) Why would the Dragon need to be in contact with anyone?

2) Who would notice this? Say the Dragon did feel a need to keep in contact with a local town guard for some inexplicable reason, and he sends a Dragonborn to talk to his sources.

A) Who would raise an eyebrow at some random Dragonborn chatting up a militiaman?

B) How in the world would anyone know that this same Dragonborn's wandering around in the middle of the wilderness 10 miles away?

You're making some pretty unrealistic assumptions, here.

When the minions must do everything then they are the BBEG, not the dragon. Do you really want a kobold cleric to be in charge of a horde of kobolds with a dragon as guard dog?

So when Megatron sent the Decepticons to do a job, they were the BBEG, and not Megatron? When Cobra Commander sent Cobra agents on a job, they were the BBEG, and not Cobra Commander? As someone else said, the whole point of the minion IS to do most of the work, so that the BBEG doesn't have to do it. What's the point of having minions if you're doing all the work they could be doing?

Also kobolds make very bad messengers as they can't move freely in most societies.

Sewers. They can travel all throughout any city through the sewer system. And even if there is no sewer system to move through, they can still move about fairly freely at night. They're stealthier than most, and being only 2 feet tall, they can sneak around quite easily.

Dragonborn are a bit better because they are more accepted. But you still have to answer where those minions live, what they eat, where they get their resources and equipment from, etc.

They live with the dragon. There's plenty of room in the mountains that Dragons lair in for Kobold servants to tunnel out homes for themselves. Or hell, the Dragon may have taken over a Dwarf Clanhold, and it's already got rooms and corridors tunneled into it. As for where they get their food and resources from, they get it in the same way that Dwarf Clanholds got them. In their case, it's much easier and less noticeable, as we're talking a couple dozen minions, and not thousands upon thousands of Dwarves.

They must be if they are only good for attacking small villages. Saving villages are adventure for heroic 1-10 level adventurers. higher level adventurers have something better to do than to save a small village from a dragon. They save big cities or even kingdoms and maybe even wander the planes.
(See http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=216163)

When dragons are supposed to be encounters worthy for paragon or maybe even epic adventurers, they must be able to do some paragon or ewic stuff. Threatening a small village is not enough.

You're making an illogical conclusion, here. There is nothing at all to support that dragons will be reduced to low-level villains, and given what we've seen of 4E Dragons so far, the exact opposite is true. Just look HERE. The dragon in that fight had over 1,000 hit points and AC 49. Hardly a minor threat.

 

[jaer]

OMG this topic is still going? And it has spread to a new thread to boot. Well, I have nothing better to do at the moment.

First of all that is a LOT of assumption that you will get that many archers ready to shoot WITH magic arrows without a good bit of advance warning. Only an idiot of a dragon would ever give the city that kind of chance to get ready.

Here is what will actually happen
....
And the dragon in this example has NO minions to fight or simply spready discord or sabotage the defense.

Tzarevitch

Awesome. Pure awesome.

This what I envision when I think of a dragon attack. I just don't have it in me to think most towns have adventure-grade citizens dwelling within, and certainly not enough to muster a counter to repel a dragon attack as it is happening. The best thing one can do is hunker down somewhere where you won't burn and nothing too large can crash on you and pray until it over.

That was always my biggest mental block to FR setting, too many high level NPCs hanging around for my taste.

 

[Cmarco]

Dragons don't necessarily need to make their lairs themselves... they could just steal, move into, or kill for their own lairs. I often use this approach, rather than having the dragon spell-shape stone or something else. My players actually just fought a black dragon who'd killed an old hermit (actually a fairly powerful druid), and taken over his home.

 

[Derren]

Blindsight 60 ft = 120ft radius chamber for sleeping. No possible way to sneak up on dragon with out his attention being generated. All entrances to chambers are plugged thus requiring some strength and noise to remove, less they are disintegrated. To further allow for situations were plugs are disintigrated there is a heavy object on the top of the plug that would fall when the plug failed thus making a loud noise, temor, or displacement of material alerting the dragon.

Simple non-magical and VERY effective at keeping the dragon alive and alert to intruders. Can it be penetrated of course, but then again any defence can be penetrated.

You are aware that the dragon needs to be able to go in and out there, too? Also dragons need to breath......

The next part communication.

Why do people require dragons to take human form to communicate to thier operatives? Once a dragon interests one individual he can EASILY with his treasure gather an entire army and network with very little effort. As for getting in touch with his cohorts that is again easily done through messengers, and SIGNS. When the fire is raised on the hill north at dusk you know I shall be calling upon you. Similarily when the green smoke rises from the chimney of your home I know you have something to report to me. We meet at the prearranged clearing where I simply fly to.

So the dragon has to sit the entire day on top of a hill (very exposed) and look for smoke. (I though the dragon has to bury itself into a 120 ft cave?). And what does the dragon do if he wants to speak with his operatives? Set a forest on fire? Messengers are a possibility, but they are unreliable and slow. Much too slow when a teleporting adventuring party arrives.

One more thing we are talking about spells that make a wizard about 5-10th level or so. WHY can't a dragon simply make a deal or befriend such a wizard. They are small weak and snackable to a dragon, while the dragon can offer them access to power, wealth, protection, components, amd most importantly KNOWLEDGE.

As dragons can't cast spells, what knowledge can they offer? Also 10th level wizards are not the ones which are easily intimidated as they can easily make sure that the dragon can never harm them (living in a big city is most of the time enough).

Example:
Wizard and his 2 body guards are traveling form one town to the other. The dragon swoops in eats said weak bodygaurds and snatches young wizard to take to a rocky ledge were he starts his deal making. If the wizard seems uninterested well he is boney but atleast he might be tasty.

A 10th level wizard would not walk. He flies or teleports.

Oh yeah which person said a dragon can not escape a combat... THEY CAN FLY!!!!!!!!! while alot of adventures can as well something tells me that the dragon stands a good chance of winning a chase either by cunningly seperating the foes or lining them up for a nice beath weapon or two.

And by flying away they are exposed to being shot with arrows. And because a 20 always hits, the distance doesn't matter when you have enough archers.