Low level, low magic

[der_kluge]

Wow, I really created a monster with this thread, didn't I? I'm sorry.

Anyway, I'm curious about Midnight - how does the economy scale in it? I was talking to my friend about Everquest, because it seems to me that, in that game, the concept of "low-level" lasts a really long time, and it seems like money is hard to come by all the way up to about level 30.

My idea of low level also includes low-money. In that, the PCs go on quests, and earn a meager amount of income to try to save up for a new masterwork sword, or even save up for a set of full plate armor. I've never seen anyone actually *purchase* full plate armor that wasn't magical.

The thing is, it seems, NPCs (commoners, peasants, etc.) get paid a monthly wage that is measured by silver pieces. They live on coppers a day. But a single adventurer, who completes a single quest might receive 100gp as a reward, or find that much during the quest. It would be the equivalent of giving someone a reward of $10,000 for finding your lost purse in the park. It's just not the right kind of scale.

Does "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe" have a more reasonable economic structure?

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Wow, I really created a monster with this thread, didn't I? I'm sorry.

No problem, really. Happens any time someone shows interest in lower powered games.

Anyway, I'm curious about Midnight - how does the economy scale in it? I was talking to my friend about Everquest, because it seems to me that, in that game, the concept of "low-level" lasts a really long time, and it seems like money is hard to come by all the way up to about level 30.

Money? Heh...

Complete barter. Imagine a world where Gondor has fallen to the Dark Lord. PCs are essentially rebels and guerilla fighters (although the Shadow Kings might call them terrorists) struggling to survive in a world where the odds are against them. In this, PCs need to learn to obtain resources and use them in exchange for resources needed to continue the fight.

 

[der_kluge]

Complete barter. Imagine a world where Gondor has fallen to the Dark Lord. PCs are essentially rebels and guerilla fighters (although the Shadow Kings might call them terrorists) struggling to survive in a world where the odds are against them. In this, PCs need to learn to obtain resources and use them in exchange for resources needed to continue the fight.

Ugh, sounds kind of bleak, if you ask me.

 

[Numion]

Ugh, sounds kind of bleak, if you ask me.

It is. Don't believe the hype on Midnight, but check for yourself. The setting isn't for everyone. As an old WHFRP (another game were final victory isn't in sight) I thought I'd like it very much.

Instead to me the setting seemed boring, and lacked in execution. I may have been spoiled by the production values in certain WotC products though.

But the setting has a strong fan support, so you should check it out, it might be just for you. Paka's storyhour is also an excellent read.

 

[Old One]

A couple of thoughts...

die_kluge,

A few ideas for your on-going discussion...

IMC, the PCs are currently 5-7th level and don't have a "+" magic weapon between the five of them and very limited amounts of other magic items. A couple of tools I have used:

(1) Moved to a silver standard, yet kept the costs the same in gold for most items and services. This essentially cuts the PCs purchasing power by a factor of 10. I do have a fairly involved trade, barter and merchant system, but the PCs have yet to delve into that too deeply. Also, captured gear only brings in 5 - 20% of it's retail value and guilds will rapidly become unhappy if someone starts flooding the market with cut-rate short swords "liberated" from kobolds. Since I didn't want the PCs to be spending every last copper on food and shelter, most PCs have in-game relationships or patrons that can provide said items at little or no cost.

(2) Magic items are not readily available for purchase. Aside from one-shots like low-level scrolls and potions, most magic items are not available for purchase. They can be commissioned, gifted (rare), loaned from a patron (rarer) or discovered in treasure (also rare). Virtually all permanent items require "power components" that involve mini-quests to retrieve. The PCs are just starting to take item creation feats, so we will see how they progress. In addition to "power components", I also require a formula for most items. This requires research, bartering, purchase, favors and/or guild membership and most formulas are jealously guarded secrets.

(3) Use of bonded items. Several of the PCs have bonded weapons which have hidden powers that grow with the PCs over time as the PCs place XP into the items through rituals and/or formulae. I actually like the Midnight "Covenant" weapons and am thinking about incorporating some of that approach.

(4) Care over CRs/ECLs. As mentioned by an earlier poster, one critter with DR of +1/- can be trouble, so you have to think alot about what gets thrown at them.

(5) Control advancement. We are getting ready to have Session 29, so PC have advanced a level about every 4.5 sessions, and that rate has slowed down recently. Of course, we only play 1 game a month, so that pace might be too fast for weekly/bi-weekly players. I suggest deciding how fast you want PCs to advance and scaling the XP accordingly.

The players really seem to enjoy the game and although there is grousing from time to time about being magic poor and having empty purses, I try to make up for it with abject terror and regular a$$-beatings !

~ Old One

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Bleak? Yeah, kinda... But that's half the point. Rather than having a world set up around an adventurer's economy (whatever that's supposed to mean), the adventurers are more inclined to obtain Skills that are more focused on what they can trade. For instance, a bushel of apples takes up space and adds weight, but being a skilled carpenter is a part of you that doesn't require any upkeep other than survival.

Bleak? No, not really... Rather than being the servants of "the light", the characters instead are "the light". They aren't just heroes amongst a world of heroes, they are the heroes in a world overrun by darkness.

Really, it's a great setting, and while the theme of the individual world is dark, it is (along with Conan and Slain) a great example of functional and fun games that don't come loaded to the gills with magical mayhem. There is a preview/overview of midnight at the Fantasy Flight website, and it's the topic of choice at Against the Shadow. A note, though, that the setting doesn't provide a means of defeating the Shadow. This is not to make the Shadow undefeatable, but rather to let the individual group decide how it can be done for themselves. It can involve tossing a ring into a pool of molten rock, or it could be epic level magic, or it could be anything in between. Heck, I've considered the possibility of running a series of mini-campaigns to represent X number of generations during a thousand years of resistance before finishing it off.

It's a setting with possibilities, rather than just "more only bigger", and that's something rare in todays RPG market.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

If you're interested in Midnight, check out my review here: http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=Ashrem+Bayle&product=mid1

I think I touched all the major bases with it.

Here's a quicky:

Whether you’re new to the scene or a veteran of the RPG, Midnight will give you the basis for endless adventure in a dark fantasy setting!

For those of us that love to weave the story, control the situations, and dangle the proverbial carrots to eager players, Midnight is a dream come true. A truly unique setting, the world of Aryth is a dark place of rampant evil and wicked dominion, all presided over by the only deity that exists, the Dark God, Izrador. It has often been said that the realm of Midnight would be akin to Middle-Earth™ if Sauron had regained the One Ring and defeated the forces of light. We tend to think that Sauron was a pampers-wearing toddler compared to Izrador.

Midnight also offers an alternative to the standard d20 magic system, based upon a caster’s ability score bonus, utilizing a versatile point-based system. There is no divine magic per se, save that granted to the clerics of Izrador (called Legates), but some of the spells from the d20 Core Rule Books that were previously divine have been transposed to a more arcane base. This creates an outstanding base for enhanced role-playing, and hours of player enjoyment.

The storyline is no less fantastic – a dark god, cast down by his fellow gods, deceives them all. While his prime form was destroyed and his essence cast down to the vast polar regions of Aryth, the very act of destroying his form severed Aryth from the other gods. The question of whether or not the Sundering , as it is known, is a permanent situation has yet to be determined. The amount of power it would take to reverse such a baneful predicament is beyond the scope of even the gods trapped outside of the barrier, now cut off for thousands of years from the memories of the people who fight daily just to stay alive. And as the saying goes, “He does not share power.” Magic is outlawed. Weapons and armor are illegal, too. Can you imagine dropping your PC’s into a veritable ‘police-state’ that just happens to be their entire world? Where will you take your story?

Midnight has already seen a tremendous following, and a large part of that is due to the fansites devoted to the setting. Both the Yahoo! Group ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Midnight-D20 ) and this site, Against the Shadow, have been an outstanding source of Q & A about the setting, and have seen some of the most brilliant works of fans ever assembled for any setting. The wealth of information and collaboration between fans is near staggering, and the fan base just keeps growing! Immerse your gaming experience with downloads, new monsters, rules clarifications, even a brand new Netbook , with more on the way!

The Midnight setting was anticipated for a long time, and with its arrival, the community can say only one thing: Give us more! FFG has responded, and more product support is on the way. The setting has even now been 'ported to other gaming systems outside of d20 - all by the fans. Come and see what the fans are writing! Check out the setting for yourself; you won’t be disappointed!

Author: Swashbuckler
www.againsttheshadow.org

 

[PJ Mason]

Midnight is pretty darn good. I like their magic variation. Even though i pretty much hate the stock non-human races (i'm talking genocide level here folks), i'll admitt that their elves are a darn sight more interesting than what i normally have to gag through in most settings with elves in them.

Its the only Tolkienesque (you know..if Sauron had won like he should have!) setting i can handle anymore, if thats worth anything to anyone.

The barter system is....ok.. Which means by the time you are done with a Midnight campaign, you're pretty happy to go back standard D&D. Not in a bad way though, in a good way. I think it might not be for right for most. Unless you have a real self-masochistic (sp?) streak in you...you know, like Ravenloft players have.

 

[Malk]

Actually, those are part of the equation... When you add in all the "+" and special abilities, the character's ability to defend himself (which, unless you use a Defense modifier, isn't squat in D&D, unless you're a Monk) or attack his foes and deal damage to them becomes more about the powers of the items than about the character's abilities. Rather than the character's ability being enhanced by these items, the items gain a slight boon from the character's abilities. The only notable exception being BAB, which one might say "figures..."

Then add in all the minor goodies that generally make your Sword & Sorcery genre character come across more like an as-yet unnamed X-Man, and the whole thing stops being exciting and just turns into cheese.

The issue, I think, is the ratio of that strengthening. It's the line between Hero and Super-Hero (which is relative to the individual and the group, wouldn't you say?).

Humor Radar off?

Two things. One, I wrote that before hong posted (I think I did, anyway... Let me check... Yes, indeed, I did post that before hand.). Two, like I say in this last quote, I was a munchkin in 7th Grade (killed Asmodeus all nine times and everything!). But then my mom (another fantasy nut) took me to see Conan (likely unaware of some moments of content) and my taste in the genre changed (8th Grade). Then I saw Excalibur, and my tastes changed some more (8th Grade still, I think... It was 3-4 months later). Then I read some Amber novels and got a subscription to Heavy Metal (in 9th Grade, thanks to Uncle Diedrich for turning me on to those two angles of fantasy), and my tastes haven't stopped changing since. This is just a general trait that people, naturally, evolve through over time (be glad you didn't know me during my "Gor" period). Tastes in movies, books, tv shows, cars, partners/mates, and such are quite varied and diverse.

To which my point is, the statement isn't about calling people names, because I don't. What I'm stating is that the only time I've seen a D&D game have as much friggin' loot as standard 3E dictates as the norm, I was in 7th Grade, and I was a munchkin. To which, "everybody" is not meant all inclusive, but I'm sure that most of the people reading this that have played for more than 10 years can look back on earliest games and say the same thing. And those folks playing for less than that? Well, many will be saying it if they aren't already.

i may not have been playing for ten years but i can say this, not once in any single game that i have played in, have any magical items taken away from the roleplaying qualities of the people at my table, items (in some cases, many items) have never taken away from the charecter, and in those rare situations where i have encountered really bad roleplaying, no item could help it. I dont think that you are calling anyone names, but it the implication that after ten years of roleplaying i wont enjoy high loot games makes me uneasy. But again i would never want to exclusively play one style, to say that ill ontly play "X" type game would be horrifying to me.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

...but i can say this, not once in any single game that i have played in, have any magical items taken away from the roleplaying qualities of the people at my table...

I've been waiting for someone to post this.

Someone always does.

Funny part is, no one said that magic items did that.

Isn't that funny to you? I'm starting to find it hillarious.