Low level, low magic

[aurance]

A lot of defensive bitterness here today...

Feels like a weekend with the parents.

-A

 

[Numion]

A lot of defensive bitterness here today...

Feels like a weekend with the parents.

-A

Go to you room. Now!

 

[Desdichado]

Well, as this place has already concluded, low power is BAAAAAAAAAAAD. Anybody who doesn't run the highest-possible power campaigns must do so because he's an idiot. So, if you're like me and prefer low-power, be prepared for some snidery.

Without reading the whole thread (I'll try to get to that in a few minutes), I'd have to say that this is completely counter to my experiences with ENWorld, that has quite a few fans of both low level and low magic. Heck, I'm one myself. I think 10th level is really high, and I prefer custom magic systems that work more like the one in Midnight or d20 Call of Cthulhu myself.

 

[Malk]

A lot of defensive bitterness here today...

Feels like a weekend with the parents.

-A

i apologize if i seem defensive, as i have tried to say several times that i like both styles of game, and if it hasnt been said explicitly it has certainly at times seemed implied that "the game becomes what the charecters magic items can do and not what they can do" i took that to mean that they affect play, i apologize if i misunderstood.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Thieves World
-Anyone who says Thieves World is the perfect low-magic setting either hasn't read the books lately or wasn't paying attention when they did. They are by far my favorite books and i reread them regularly and they are a perfect example of a setting that can handle all power levels at the same time. There is power-gaming going on in these books that would make most Forgotten Realm players blush. You have at least 15 high-powered wizards, priests, and witches connected to one city, you have at least 4 Divine "Chosen Ones" (TEmpus, Chenaya, Roxanne, and even the lowly neighborhood street thief Hanse, who is the favorite of Ils, banged a goddess and killed a god, gaining temporary limited wish-at will powers in the process). There is at LEAST 6 or 7 instances where the gods walked the streets, battled each other in the sky over Sanctuary, inhabited the bodies of mortals to do the wild thing, created a magic weapon shop out of the blue in street that gave out cursed items to anyone who wanted them (hehe) and plenty other examples. One of its lowly characters, Lalo the painter, gained powers that let him animate anything he drew (including a demonic version of the Vulgar Unicorn that ran off causing mayhem in the streets of Sanctuary).

So was Sanctuary low-powered? Not even close. But it had the right, usually, grim-like attitude with great writing and imagination. Its not about the rules you use or don't use, its the attitude and mindset you and your players chose before the campaign starts. That and great roleplaying (the equiavlent of great writing i guess?).

You're right that Thieves' World was not low magic but it often felt like it, and allowed for a much easier mix of power levels in the same area than many other settings. I was amazed at the uber-magics on hand when I went back and reread the first couple books!

Anyway, for those interested, here are handy links to Crothian's threads detailing his d20 conversions of Thieves' World:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27794

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27940

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28929

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29018

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29635

 

[coyote6]

You're right that Thieves' World was not low magic but it often felt like it, and allowed for a much easier mix of power levels in the same area than many other settings.

I think what allowed Thieves' World to mix power levels easily was that it was fiction; the authors controlled not only how powerful the abilities were, but how they were used.

There's nothing that keeps a hypothetical group of players from, say, taking the Iconic Characters at 18th level (and their Iconic Piles of +5 Stuff), and running them as grim, gritty characters that only use said items in rare situations where they would be dramatically appropriate.

Not that I know that hypothetical group of players...

 

[hong]

Yes, they are effects. But they are the effects of the items.

Who gives a damn?

After all, Alladin's lamp wasn't so special because it as an anitique.

Aladdin's [sic] lamp was special because it could produce an effect no other lamp could.

Hmmm... I love that movie. But... I don't remember any magic items in it.

Smeagol did this better than you.

I do remember some nifty mystical qualities that the characters gained over the course of years of training and sacrifice.

Said years of training and sacrifice are backstory. And what difference does it make, as long as you can fly and teleport?

I didn't see these. How were the character levels and how much gp worth of magical trinkets did they carry around?

You seem unhealthily obsessed with gold. I suggest modifying your materialistic tendencies lest you look like a munchkin.

Guess he wasn't as feeble at 850 as he was at 900. Consequently, EP1 and EP2 are damn good examples of why someone should write the story when its in their head instead of 25 years later after you've run out of good ideas.

Do you have a point, or is the only point around the one on top of your head?

Except, unlike wuxia, part of D&D's definition of power involves cash-and-carry magic items that don't resemble wuxia at all

The only person who gives a damn about the items is you, munchkin boy.

but Final Fantasy.

And?

No, I don't like being told how to play D&D,

You'll be told how to play D&D until you get a clue.

or having it implied (yet again, seems common on these boards) that my preference is attached to inability.

Your preference is attached to an inability to comprehend the paradigm shift that takes place at high power levels, which necessitates vigorous application of the cluebat.

A lot people watch Friends without a moments hesitation as well.

Your point is, munchkin boy?

Says you.

No, an epigram is supposed to be _funny_. BE FUNNY!

Finally reading the posts before replying?

Well, I've always been a forgiving sort of guy.

The only thing that could possibly drive me nuts are the number of people that have convinced themselves that any style of play other than their own is wrong

This self-hatred is just wrong, you know.

and now futily seek to convince everyone else of the same nonsense.

Whatever.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Gee... Is moderation going to ever do something about this creep, or does he have a special license or something? I mean, every time he starts to act civil and you think you can actually engage in a conversation, he shifts back into Jerk.

Or was it my mistake to not ignore the irrelevant nuisance to begin with?

 

[der_kluge]

Hong, I'd prefer if you not get my thread closed. Please refrain from name-calling here.

 

[hong]

Without reading the whole thread (I'll try to get to that in a few minutes), I'd have to say that this is completely counter to my experiences with ENWorld, that has quite a few fans of both low level and low magic. Heck, I'm one myself. I think 10th level is really high, and I prefer custom magic systems that work more like the one in Midnight or d20 Call of Cthulhu myself.

Historically speaking, I think 10th level _is_ really high. 1E and 2E seem to have the implicit assumption that the bulk of gaming is going to take place at low levels (1st to 9th), and everything from 10th up is a different ball game. IIRC the longest-running campaign I was part of went for about 2-3 years, and we'd only hit 10th level at the end.

This can be seen in how the spells are organised as you go up levels. Boom spells like fireball appear at 3rd level, as does fly. Teleport and raise dead are 5th. This really is epic, world-changing stuff, using the plain-English meaning of the word, and it's available to 9th level characters. If you got to 18th, you had wish, which was essentially a back-door for breaking the rules of the game (all that waffle about wishes being dangerous notwithstanding; that's what wish _is_: a mechanism for a character to go outside the rules framework. It's basically the ultimate plot device.).

This was okay, because it'd be a long time before PCs got their hands on these toys, and DMs could use them in crafting backstories, world histories, providing plot devices, building uber-NPCs , etc.

What 3E did was to keep the same power progression, but speed up the XP gain significantly. The assumption now is that you're going to play through the 20 levels, but they didn't actually change anything about what powers you gain. The consequence is that powers that used to be above the threshold of the game will actually see frequent use. That in turn results in a major shifting of tone, which is not something that a lot of people want in their game.

To some extent, the same thing happens in 3E. The threshold hasn't disappeared; it's just moved from ~10th level to 20th. Epic is now where you put all the pesky plot-device-spells and items, as well as stuff that falls into the too-hard basket. Perhaps the trend will continue in 4E, and the philosophy will be that you're expected to gain 40 levels in a campaign....