Low level, low magic

[der_kluge]

Buttercup, if I do say so myself, your game sounds absolutely dreamy! I think that may just be the kind of thing that I was thinking of. To scrounge, and save, and buy a masterwork sword, or armor - to only hear legends of magic items, and to guard them with your life should you ever manage to acquire one. I think that's probably the closest one could ever get to a "LoTR" style game.

And I've never really cared for XP, but it might also work in a system such as this, to belabor the point that progression is exceedingly slow, especially if you only gave out 100xp here, and 50xp there, and rewarded only good role-playing, and good puzzle-solving.

Now, take something like that, and wrap something gothic like Ravenloft around it (or maybe Midnight, though I don't speak from a position of authority) and I think that would be an awesome game.

Of course, I'd have a difficult time, since I like to play sorcerers, clerics, and wizards a lot.

 

[Malk]

in regaurds to the post asking whether or not all the variants are DND, i say yes. In my mind dnd is designed to be a loose skin of rules that can be shaped and modified in any number of ways and still be its own game. it even says so in the dmg, do what you want its your game. You might as well say greyhawk was the original dnd anything else is another game

as far as the scaling of xp in 3.0-.5, i dont really use it anyway, some levels i have the pc's go up quickly, some levels slowly, though it may seem tyranical, i used the pc's level as another tool at my disposal, going from first to second level in my games usualy takes just the first session, i like the rush of power that comes from leveling up the first night. On the other hand, i might decide to keep them at tenth level for a very long time cause it feels right and them jump the next two levels quickly, i try not to let xp become a focus point of the game. I've also learned to read my players, trust me, the people i play with will tell me explicitly whether they think we are advancing too fast, or too slow, and really its all about mutual enjoyment.

 

[Dogbrain]

Long ago, in the days of the Ancients, we didn't ask "Is this D&D?". We asked "Do I want to play with these variations in D&D?". Indeed, the idea that changing the "official" assumptions but pretty much using the same rules was considered laughable--"Gygaxian" was the term used from time to time to describe that attitude. This was back in the day when he was writing essays to the effect that if one changed any of the rules, one was no longer playing D&D. The problem was that (according to later correspondence I had with him) he was presuming a "tournament standard" as the only acceptable definition of the game. Thus, just as chess variants are all chess, they are not all "tournament standard" chess--the one version that everybody was presumed to know and could be presumed to play worldwide whenever they met. Unfortunately, he didn't spell that out very well.

Double unfortunately, others got infected with the misunderstanding and began to advocate it.

 

[PJ Mason]

Wow, I really created a monster with this thread, didn't I? I'm sorry.

I don't mind. Except for a few zingers and the usual irreverance of Hong its going pretty well.

 

[PJ Mason]

You're right that Thieves' World was not low magic but it often felt like it, and allowed for a much easier mix of power levels in the same area than many other settings. I was amazed at the uber-magics on hand when I went back and reread the first couple books!

I totally agree. Some of the differences i think were that even the "big guns" would muck around in the muddy alleyways of Downwind and you could smell the stench of stale beer and vomit when they entered the Vulgar Unicorn. That is more difficult a thing to achieve when you have 5 living breathing writers at the game table. although if the group is together long enough, they can develope a rhythm. It is a perfect example of cross-level genre setting. They had different leveled characters in the same group. Try finding THAT hypothetical gaming group!!!

 

[Whitey]

Let me preface this with: Whitey likes low magic.

That being said, I would want to mention one thing that seems relevant when discussing high level D&D - The dice result + bonus formula that's the core mechanic starts to stumble. Consider the following.

20th level hypothetical fighter. BAB +20

Strength of 30. Not unreasonable an expectation with racial adjustments, lewt like a greater belt of giant strength and spells like righteous might, advancement by level and so on. +10 to attacks.

+5 weapon. Let's assume our boy has one - or that such a thing even exists in the world, for this example. +5, natch.

+5 grab bag bonus. Weapon Focus, bardic music, whatever. This could concievably come from five different sources. +5 again.

That leaves us with 1d20+40. Not so very random.
Sure, a 20th level fighter is supposed to hit stuff in melee. That's what they do. By 20, they're damn good at it. But IMO this is a major change to how the game gets played.

 

[Nightfall]

Well if you don't want them hitting your wizard, cast some concealment spells!

 

[Protean]

Beware: Thought process is rather random.

I know it's been said before, but I'll say it again: In my experience, the reason why the game breaks down is tied directly to the leveling mechanic and the assumptions built into the game. I love D&D and most d20 games, but folks it is far from being the most flexible system out there. I know this doesn't correlate directly to magic level, but I'd rather discuss what I think the underlying issue is here, at least for people like myself.

The d20 system assumes dramatic growth. We don't have to play it that way, but doing so usually involves dramatic divergence from the leveling mechanic. It seems to me that the mechanic mirrors the American Dream almost. Our characters start, by assumption as 'naturals' in their fields, talented, but by all means pretty much chumps, and eventually go on to become superhuman. This has led to problems as we attempt to justify these dramatic increases in ability. I've never run into this problem in any other system. While development of prowess is important in games like Exalted, Buffy, and Mutants and Masterminds the growth remains slow enough that I'm less worried about dealing with coming to grips with my new found abilities then with D&D. With other systems, it just seems like less of a game, more of a role-playing thing.

However, I love D&D and by extension quite a few d20 games, for the gamist approach when I look for it, but I just can't shake my desire to play a game that's like D&D, but without the rapid power escalation. I love the tactical elements of D&D, but I want character stability. I'd use M&M, but if I added those same tactical elements it would muck up the system too much. I know I could pull D&D through the wringers, but I'm beginning to wonder why bother? I don't have the time to create a perfect system for myself, so until I have the time, I'd rather tinker with the parts of the system that aren't so directly tied to the system's design such as magic item creation, and working on refining divining to a much more skills-focused approach.

Hijacking : I really like what you did with the Artificer's Handbook diekluge. It's really stream-lined my games. I hate to be abrupt, but Quick Question Here: How would you integrate the point-based psionic system with the spell-slot rules if you wanted to use them for the creation of psionic items?

 

[med stud]

My advice for playing low level D&D is to change the rules (in the way some people have proposed). I think it would be a pretty uninterresting game if I had to play for ages to go from level 4 to level 5 and only find a masterwork toothbrush in the process. The story could be great and everything to compensate, but then it's really a case of the story compensating for a dull game when it gets to the characters evolving from a mechanical POV.

IMO, low level D&D straight from the books is like driving a ferrari like a trabant; it is not made for it and it is a frustrating experience. The changes to the D&D- rules I would make if I were to play a game like that would be along the lines to give out more feats and (possibly) skill points per level so that the players have something to really look forward to every level. This would be especially important when the levels are coming slow. To compensate for lack of magical items a system of special abilities linked to some kind of template taken at the beginning of the game would be nice too.

PS: Everything above is IMO and excuse me for the language. It's very much easier to read than write English

 

[der_kluge]

Hijacking : I really like what you did with the Artificer's Handbook diekluge. It's really stream-lined my games. I hate to be abrupt, but Quick Question Here: How would you integrate the point-based psionic system with the spell-slot rules if you wanted to use them for the creation of psionic items?

The Artificer's handbook works great for low magic (IIDSSM), because it already starts with the assumption that the economic system in D&D is completely F'd up. Which, unfortunately, has been the cause for some debate (mostly at the epic level, though). But, we can discuss your question here on our official forums.
Thanks for asking.