Low level, low magic
- Thread starter der_kluge
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Bendris Noulg
First Post
Had a feeling you'd come in and remind me sometime...Nightfall said:Ben,
Remember goat!
Seems after my 6-month hiatus from the net, I forgot who the troublemakers were... Getting my sea legs back, though.
Actually, I gave him a 9.5, but only because I was replying faster than him. His verbage is definately top-notch, though. Good form. The lad's got a career ahead of him if he keeps it up.Ash, nice job with your pimpage. I give you a 9.85 out of 10. (I'd give you more but still waiting to see my name in print.)
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Desdichado
Hero
hong, but that's the whole point. A lot of people were conditioned by older editions, and have their preferences based on years of play, and yet there are plenty of folks that think that's wrong -- that they should embrace the new XP scale and the resultant paradigm shift. A lot of people don't want to do that, and there's no reason why they should have to.
A more common complaint around here, though, is that high level D&D is completely its own beast with no resemblances whatsoever to the fantasy roots from which it allegedly grew. That's another reason not to like high magic and high level. There's plenty of reason not to like it, and like Bendris, I have seen folks essentially say "suck it up, you wimp! This is D&D and you will like it." By the same token, there's a strong "latte set" of gamers around here that are completely dismissive of high level high magic play and don't want to have anything to do with it.
A more common complaint around here, though, is that high level D&D is completely its own beast with no resemblances whatsoever to the fantasy roots from which it allegedly grew. That's another reason not to like high magic and high level. There's plenty of reason not to like it, and like Bendris, I have seen folks essentially say "suck it up, you wimp! This is D&D and you will like it." By the same token, there's a strong "latte set" of gamers around here that are completely dismissive of high level high magic play and don't want to have anything to do with it.
der_kluge
Adventurer
Hong, that's actually a pretty good insight. I hadn't really considered that angle. I was talking to a friend of mine, and we came to the conclusion that in Lord of the Rings, no one was really above about 4th or 5th level. The most powerful thing Gandalf does (now, keep in mind I still haven't seen RotK) is to cast something akin to Prot. from evil, and then minor globe of invulnerability. That's it. No, walls of force, or fireballs. I've also heard arguments that tend to place Gandalf more into the Druid category, as well.
Bendris Noulg
First Post
Actually, I think I have summed up my personal thoughts regarding high powered D&D...
Think of it more along the lines of, "if D&D had been like this in the beginning, it never would have interested me and I likely never would have become a gamer." Which begs the question: Is it really D&D or just someone else's idea of D&D that copyright ownership allows them to call "official"? Is Arcana Unearthed Monte's latest D&D campaign or another game entirely? By the terms of the OGL, it is "legally" another game. However, conversing here together as gamers and not lawyers or publishers, is it really another game, or just D&D with a bunch of House Rules? Is it as different from D&D as, let's say, Planescape or Dark Sun or SpellJammer or Birthright were, each with their own racial line ups, Kits (in place of 3E's Base and Prestige Classes), environments and themes?Joshua Dyal said:
Buttercup
Princess of Florin
We must not be reading the same EN World. I've read many threads in the past where people were looking for ways to tone down the magic and the power.Dogbrain said:
In fact, I think you're more likely to get sneering directed your way if you espouse high power-high level play.
Buttercup
Princess of Florin
OK, now that I've read the entire thread, I've got something of substance (I hope) to add to the discussion. But first, I'd like to respectfully ask Hong to knock it off. This thread will be more fun for everyone if you play nice.
Anyway, I've been thinking about low power games too. That's why I asked the question about starting players as NPC classes in this thread. I'm not looking to DM a game in which the players have no hope of triumphing, but I want them to feel that they are earning--really earning--everything they have, from items to gold to feats.
I like the Adept class because it only ever gets 5th level spells on the one hand, but on the other, it has a d6 for hit dice, making it much more likely the adept will survive than if you just sent a magic poor Wizard out to do battle. I like the Warrior because he's a regular Joe, not the supreme whirling-bot-o'-death a Fighter becomes. And the Expert is such a versatile class, you can be anything from cutpurse to alchemist. None of these classes are useless, but they also aren't larger than life.
Anyway, IMC the players are 3rd level. We only play once a month, so this has taken them a year of sessions. Amongst a party of 7, they've got three everburning torches, masterwork weapons all around, an immovable rod and a set of +1 gauntlets for the frail little boy who is the party sorcerer. (Who has yet to take a damage causing spell.) Other than that, they only have some potions, a bit of gold, and a few semi precious stones. They were briefly escorting a noble who had an heirloom magic sword, but none of the PCs know that it was a Keen Rapier. They just know the owner could really slice n' dice with it, and it had a blue glow. They've met exactly one wizard, though they've heard of another one. I'll probably arrange for them to get more magic items eventually, but not many, and they won't ever find them for sale. I'm really worried that they have too many already.
There is nothing wrong with high magic play. There's nothing wrong with low magic, or even no magic play. It's all a matter of taste. And this is the cool thing about D20. It's so very flexible, that we can all play the game the way we want to.
It's certainly true that if you take the magic out of 3E, or even reduce it drastically, you have to be careful about the monsters you throw at your party. But not everyone plays a combat heavy game. And even among those who do, not all those games use lots of exotic monsters. Orcs and hobgoblins with lots of hit dice or class levels can be pretty darn challenging.
Anyway, I've been thinking about low power games too. That's why I asked the question about starting players as NPC classes in this thread. I'm not looking to DM a game in which the players have no hope of triumphing, but I want them to feel that they are earning--really earning--everything they have, from items to gold to feats.
I like the Adept class because it only ever gets 5th level spells on the one hand, but on the other, it has a d6 for hit dice, making it much more likely the adept will survive than if you just sent a magic poor Wizard out to do battle. I like the Warrior because he's a regular Joe, not the supreme whirling-bot-o'-death a Fighter becomes. And the Expert is such a versatile class, you can be anything from cutpurse to alchemist. None of these classes are useless, but they also aren't larger than life.
Anyway, IMC the players are 3rd level. We only play once a month, so this has taken them a year of sessions. Amongst a party of 7, they've got three everburning torches, masterwork weapons all around, an immovable rod and a set of +1 gauntlets for the frail little boy who is the party sorcerer. (Who has yet to take a damage causing spell.) Other than that, they only have some potions, a bit of gold, and a few semi precious stones. They were briefly escorting a noble who had an heirloom magic sword, but none of the PCs know that it was a Keen Rapier. They just know the owner could really slice n' dice with it, and it had a blue glow. They've met exactly one wizard, though they've heard of another one. I'll probably arrange for them to get more magic items eventually, but not many, and they won't ever find them for sale. I'm really worried that they have too many already.
There is nothing wrong with high magic play. There's nothing wrong with low magic, or even no magic play. It's all a matter of taste. And this is the cool thing about D20. It's so very flexible, that we can all play the game the way we want to.
It's certainly true that if you take the magic out of 3E, or even reduce it drastically, you have to be careful about the monsters you throw at your party. But not everyone plays a combat heavy game. And even among those who do, not all those games use lots of exotic monsters. Orcs and hobgoblins with lots of hit dice or class levels can be pretty darn challenging.
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