D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[FormerlyHemlock]

Meh. PWK is already worse than Meteor Swarm for instance in almost every way: range, damage, AoE. If you add a saving throw then it becomes weaker than Disintegrate IX.

Compare: 100 HP for PWK vs 19d6+40 for Disintegrate, except that PWK does zero damage if you guessed wrong about how many HP the enemy had left.

PWK is the last spell in the book in need of nerfing, with the sole exception of Witch Bolt.

 

[KarinsDad]

Meh. PWK is already worse than Meteor Swarm for instance in almost every way: range, damage, AoE. If you add a saving throw then it becomes weaker than Disintegrate IX.

Compare: 100 HP for PWK vs 19d6+40 for Disintegrate, except that PWK does zero damage if you guessed wrong about how many HP the enemy had left.

Except that Disintegrate is force damage. Force damage can be mitigated. Temp hit points, resistance to Force, or immunity to Force. There are few defenses against PWK except current hit points or counterspell. Disintegrate at 9th level (where it's other features are basically irrelevant) is about on par with PWK (with a save).

Granted, your point is well made. I just still think that mental compulsion auto-kill with virtually no defense (except hit point total) is pretty powerful. One typically will not Meteor Swarm the evil wizard while he is standing next to the King.

If I were to give a saving throw to PWK, I would make it one of the lousier ones. And I might even up its hit point total to make it better than Disintegrate.


And interestingly enough, 3E Disintegrate was 140 max average points, 5E is 108. They increased monster hit points and nerfed the spell.

3E PWK is 100 points and so is 5E. It's pretty obvious that they did not really look at PWK too closely. All of the 3E defenses against it are now gone (mind affecting, enchantment, magic resistance) and there are not many 5E ones.


I know one thing. If a DM throws 5E PWK at their players and they do not even get a save and have no real ways to mitigate it, there might be some hard feelings at some tables.

3E had stronger heals. The Heal spell in 5E (about the only way most PCs can survive PWK) is about 50 points weaker than 3E.

 

[Celtavian]

Do you have a rules quote for that? Maybe from the MM? I didn't know that it worked that way.

Yep. There's no rules quote. It explains how it works in the ability. You take the full damage from the attack. It reduces maximum hit points by the same amount of damage per listed at the same time it does damage. it does not list order of operations. So it all happens simultaneously unless you know of a ruling stating otherwise. It also is what makes the harm spell such a powerful damage dealer as well for the cleric.

It doesn't matter if it is a 9th level spell. Save or suck, quite frankly, sucks. No save just die goes way beyond suck. This is way too abusable. The 200 hit point monster just took 110 points of damage, now it dies.

The hit points of the Lich (which is immune or resistant to most damage) is fine. It's the terribly written PWK spell that does not balance with the rest of the game system.

I can't disagree. Power word kill is a no brainer at high level. Get someone under and 100 hit points and you have an "I win" button.

But this is totally DM dependent. I would think that most gnolls running down a corridor would at least try to touch a magically appearing wall or creature with their spears. Maybe a wall of fire might be more unlikely to be touched, but then again, it doesn't give off heat (IIRC). Maybe an illusion of something a bit more scarey (like a wall of weird moving colors might seem like something that someone is unwilling to touch).

DMs who always say yes might be amiable to a simple illusion holding off gnolls without the gnolls trying anything. A DM who does not, might not.

Just like in 4E, you aren't meant to hold them off forever. If you can get a few rounds out of it, the spell has done its job. In some ways 5E mirrors 4E making magic a temporary solution for a few rounds rather than a permanent solution like in 3E. There are a few spells that last longer than others like suggestion and hypnotic pattern, but most spells are short duration control. Doesn't mirror 4E's control spells? Short duration control to give the party a few round advantage in the damage/hit point race?

 

[Celtavian]

Perhaps the simpler solution is to just give your demilich Counterspell. I know if I were a demilich, I'd keep myself ready for a a good ol' fashioned wizard duel at a moment's notice.

Also gives the player a fighting chance if the demilich has used his 9th level slot, or forces the demilich to use it.

They also have an ability that encases someone in an antimagic field, which for a demilich is an "I win" button. No way to hurt him once encased.

 

[Celtavian]

I just think that giving it a saving throw is the simplest solution. It might just work. It might not. Where does it state that 9th level spells should always work? If 1st level Charm Person should have a chance to fail against low level foes, then auto-kill 9th level PWK should definitely have a chance to fail (other than the NPC having 100 or more hit points) against high level foes. Granted, some high level foes have defenses against failed saving throws, but wizards should not be able to one shot extremely powerful foes anyway.

Death Ward allows a save against power word kill, but not many will have access to it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yep. There's no rules quote. It explains how it works in the ability. You take the full damage from the attack. It reduces maximum hit points by the same amount of damage per listed at the same time it does damage. it does not list order of operations. So it all happens simultaneously unless you know of a ruling stating otherwise. It also is what makes the harm spell such a powerful damage dealer as well for the cleric.

I think you have been misinterpreting this rule my friend.

"Hit: 16 (4d6+2) piercing damage plus 24 (7d6) necrotic damage, and the target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken."


Let's say that a given creature has a special ability that does "the target's hit point maximum is reduced by 20" and that special ability does no normal hit point damage.

If a PC currently has 40 points out of 80, the target is now 40 points out of 60, only hit point maximum is affected.
If a PC currently has 60 points out of 80, the target is now 60 points out of 60, only hit point maximum is affected.
If a PC currently has 80 points out of 80, the target is now 60 points out of 60, both current and hit point maximum is affected.
If a PC currently has 70 points out of 80, the target is now 60 points out of 60, both current and hit point maximum is affected.

From the last one here, one can see that one can only modify current hit points for this ability if and only if maximum goes below current. If maximum is equal to or greater than current, current is not affected. The special ability does not state "lower both current and maximum by 20". It states "lower maximum by 20".

The ability here never touches current hit points. It only touches max hit points. But obviously, because current can never be higher than maximum, current has to be lowered if maximum goes below current. But this special ability maximum damage is not applied to both. Just maximum.


Now, you yourself claimed that this all damage is simultaneous.

So let's add in the other two types of damage. Let's use the Chasme damage itself of 16 piercing, 24 necrotic, and 24 necrotic vs. max.

The PC has 70 current hit points out of 80.

Current: 70 goes to 30. (lowered by 16 piercing and 24 necrotic)
Maximum: 80 goes to 56. (lowered by 24 necrotic)

The order here is irrelevant since it is simultaneous. I could have written:

Maximum: 80 goes to 56. (lowered by 24 necrotic)
Current: 70 goes to 30. (lowered by 16 piercing and 24 necrotic)

After all damage is done and the effect is over, then we ask the question is maximum less than current, if so, lower current to maximum.

There really is no other way to do this.


Here is what you might be doing (or alternatively, you are double dipping damage):

1) Do maximum damage first:

Maximum: 80 goes to 56.

2) Is maximum less than current: yes.

Current: 70 goes to 56.

3) Do current damage:

Current: 56 goes to 16.


You are putting an order on the operations (assuming that you are doing it this way). But as you yourself stated, they are simultaneous. Current is lowered and maximum is lowered. Together. The special rule of "if max is lower than current, lower current to meet max" cannot be done until after all damage is calculated. One cannot calculate max before current and apply the lowering rule, or current before max and then apply the lowering rule. The lowering rule has to be last because it only applies after all damage is done (effectively after damage is done, we are asking the question is max still max, if not, lower current).


Now the rest of the ability states "If this effect reduces a creature's hit point maximum to 0, the creature dies". Again, this has nothing to do with current hit points. It's a simple statement that if (in our example above of an 80 hit point PC) that PC gets hit 4 times with our our original example 20 hit point maximum damaging creature, the PC dies.


This is good news for your PCs. Creatures like Chasme and Wights (which I sent at my PCs last weekend) do not double dip damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

They also have an ability that encases someone in an antimagic field, which for a demilich is an "I win" button. No way to hurt him once encased.

Well, artifacts can still affect the antimagic field protected demilich.

But the best solution is to just wait out the duration of antimagic field.


In other words, RUN!!!!!!!!!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I know one thing. If a DM throws 5E PWK at their players and they do not even get a save and have no real ways to mitigate it, there might be some hard feelings at some tables.

If they got jumped by an evil wizard's surprise scry-and-die, most evil wizard tactics will kill them already (eat three dozen minions while Held while Meteor Swarm x2 rains down on you from wizard and simulacrum), so I'll just list ways to mitigate PWK if they have thirty seconds to prepare.

Death Ward on all party members. (Yet another case where Disintegrate is superior.)
Counterspell.
Heal/Aid to raise HP above 100 if necessary.
Take cover.
Stay out of range.
Win initiative and then cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere/Wall of Force.

Death Ward in particular should be standard for anyone planning on facing an evil anything. It's your insurance against surprises like disintegration traps. Lasts for eight hours with no concentration, IIRC. (AFB.)

 

[Malovaan]

I think you have been misinterpreting this rule my friend.

-snip-

Just to say that my understanding of that rule would be exactly as KarinsDad posted here too.

 

[Celtavian]

I think you have been misinterpreting this rule my friend.

"Hit: 16 (4d6+2) piercing damage plus 24 (7d6) necrotic damage, and the target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken."


Let's say that a given creature has a special ability that does "the target's hit point maximum is reduced by 20" and that special ability does no normal hit point damage.

If a PC currently has 40 points out of 80, the target is now 40 points out of 60, only hit point maximum is affected.
If a PC currently has 60 points out of 80, the target is now 60 points out of 60, only hit point maximum is affected.
If a PC currently has 80 points out of 80, the target is now 60 points out of 60, both current and hit point maximum is affected.
If a PC currently has 70 points out of 80, the target is now 60 points out of 60, both current and hit point maximum is affected.

From the last one here, one can see that one can only modify current hit points for this ability if and only if maximum goes below current. If maximum is equal to or greater than current, current is not affected. The special ability does not state "lower both current and maximum by 20". It states "lower maximum by 20".

The ability here never touches current hit points. It only touches max hit points. But obviously, because current can never be higher than maximum, current has to be lowered if maximum goes below current. But this special ability maximum damage is not applied to both. Just maximum.


Now, you yourself claimed that this all damage is simultaneous.

So let's add in the other two types of damage. Let's use the Chasme damage itself of 16 piercing, 24 necrotic, and 24 necrotic vs. max.

The PC has 70 current hit points out of 80.

Current: 70 goes to 30. (lowered by 16 piercing and 24 necrotic)
Maximum: 80 goes to 56. (lowered by 24 necrotic)

The order here is irrelevant since it is simultaneous. I could have written:

Maximum: 80 goes to 56. (lowered by 24 necrotic)
Current: 70 goes to 30. (lowered by 16 piercing and 24 necrotic)

After all damage is done and the effect is over, then we ask the question is maximum less than current, if so, lower current to maximum.

There really is no other way to do this.


Here is what you might be doing (or alternatively, you are double dipping damage):

1) Do maximum damage first:

Maximum: 80 goes to 56.

2) Is maximum less than current: yes.

Current: 70 goes to 56.

3) Do current damage:

Current: 56 goes to 16.


You are putting an order on the operations (assuming that you are doing it this way). But as you yourself stated, they are simultaneous. Current is lowered and maximum is lowered. Together. The special rule of "if max is lower than current, lower current to meet max" cannot be done until after all damage is calculated. One cannot calculate max before current and apply the lowering rule, or current before max and then apply the lowering rule. The lowering rule has to be last because it only applies after all damage is done (effectively after damage is done, we are asking the question is max still max, if not, lower current).


Now the rest of the ability states "If this effect reduces a creature's hit point maximum to 0, the creature dies". Again, this has nothing to do with current hit points. It's a simple statement that if (in our example above of an 80 hit point PC) that PC gets hit 4 times with our our original example 20 hit point maximum damaging creature, the PC dies.


This is good news for your PCs. Creatures like Chasme and Wights (which I sent at my PCs last weekend) do not double dip damage.

That will help my PCs. Makes the ability somewhat weak compared to the old rules for energy drain and the like. The DM did it this way and it was explained this way. Now that I read it, your interpretation is probably the correct one. I'll go with it from here on out.