Low Magic Campaigns?

[S'mon]

Sooo........what you mean is, you want your setting to include a little magic, but have that magic be completely irrelevant, impotent, and a total waste of lots of time and money and effort on the spellcaster's part for no gain? If magic is going to be rare and expensive, it should at least be somewhat worthwhile (wasting a lot of time and effort to summon a dire rat would suck).

I disagree - rare, expensive and weak is a perfectly valid setting choice if you want something resembling the real world. Of course it likely won't attract much use from the PCs, but that's fine. It can still be useful for flavour, and for the occasional Rasputin or John Dee type NPC.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Sooo........what you mean is, you want your setting to include a little magic, but have that magic be completely irrelevant, impotent, and a total waste of lots of time and money and effort on the spellcaster's part for no gain? If magic is going to be rare and expensive, it should at least be somewhat worthwhile (wasting a lot of time and effort to summon a dire rat would suck).

That’s certainly one viewpoint.

On the other hand, the Shek P’var (mage) character in my Hârn campaign can now cast eleven spells. It’s taken years of research, and three of the spells were invented by the character. Only one spell can do physical damage. Summoning any type of creature is impossible. The most used spell is a light spell which lasts for over 90 minutes, and what’s more the mage rarely passes out while casting the spell. It’s all relative. If the players are having fun, and there’s a genuine sense of achievement when hard work and study pay off, it ain’t wrong. It might not be what you’re looking for, but that doesn’t mean that it sucks.

 

[jdrakeh]

Ooh, I love Warhammer, but I also love D20. I'm going to have to give this a thorough read.

I personally think that it's one of the best free d20-based rule variants out there and am surprised that it doesn't get more love (especially here at ENWorld, of all places). The author tends only to promote/discuss it at RPGnet and, for that matter, in one of the least visited sub-forums there (The Art of Game Design). I would really like to see him create an account here (if he doesn't already have one and, if he does, use it). I think that both Warheart and ENWorld posters would benefit greatly from such an arrangement

 

[Arkhandus]

No, it won't attract use from NPCs either, realistically. Firearms replaced swords and bows because they became longer-ranged, more accurate, and more powerful. Automobiles replaced horses and carriages because they became faster and more rugged. If magic in a game setting is decidedly equal or inferior to the technology in the setting, it will fall out of use if the alternatives (technology) are cheaper, or easier to find, or easier to learn the use of, or faster to use, or whatever.

If Rasputin found that he could just as well kill someone with a crossbow as with a hard-to-learn, fatigue-inducing zot of magical lightning, then he'd abandon his stupid magic tricks once he realized they're no better than what everyone else is using and only more difficult. The zot would only be worth learning if he found records of it being used to exterminate a large force of enemies at once (and even then it would only be worth bothering to study if the zot of lightning was much more expansive in its area of effect than a grenade, or a ballista/scorpion firing grapeshot, or an arquebus, or a flask of Greek fire).

Unless magic is still really useful for teleportation in a pinch (not a stupid, lengthy, expensive-to-cast ritual of teleportation), manipulating the minds of others in an effective fashion, or rendering one impervious to attacks, or similar things you can't do with technology, then it's utterly pointless. And it would still have to be reasonably efficient and practical for those purposes to really have any place in the game setting.

 

[S'mon]

No, it won't attract use from NPCs either, realistically.

Strange then how the schedules on my TV are full of 'psychics', even though their powers DON'T ACTUALLY WORK. Obviously if magic is inferior to a lump of steel on the battlefield for most purposes, the steel will be generally preferred. But magic lets you BREAK THE WALLS OF REALITY! It really doesn't matter how hard it is, or how weak the effect, the psychological effect of that capacity is immeasurable. In the real world, or in anything resembling the real world. Which apparently is not your definition of 'realistically'.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

No, it won't attract use from NPCs either, realistically. Firearms replaced swords and bows because they became longer-ranged, more accurate, and more powerful.

The fact that you don’t need to be physically strong to use them helped a lot too.

Automobiles replaced horses and carriages because they became faster and more rugged. If magic in a game setting is decidedly equal or inferior to the technology in the setting, it will fall out of use if the alternatives (technology) are cheaper, or easier to find, or easier to learn the use of, or faster to use, or whatever.

This is true, but if you’re playing a medieval fantasy role playing game, then the technology is not cheaper, easier to find, or easier to use, because it does not exist.

If Rasputin found that he could just as well kill someone with a crossbow as with a hard-to-learn, fatigue-inducing zot of magical lightning, then he'd abandon his stupid magic tricks once he realized they're no better than what everyone else is using and only more difficult. The zot would only be worth learning if he found records of it being used to exterminate a large force of enemies at once (and even then it would only be worth bothering to study if the zot of lightning was much more expansive in its area of effect than a grenade, or a ballista/scorpion firing grapeshot, or an arquebus, or a flask of Greek fire).

There are (AFAIK) no medieval grenades (apart, of course from the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch). A ballista/scorpion would not be firing grapeshot, you’re thinking movies and computer games, not history. An arquebus is, at the earliest 15th century, and dangerous for the user. This is, therefore a false argument.
You know, on the HârnForum, someone said:

In most fantasy RPGs, the characters tend to be psychopatic killer-burglars, and the world a dungeon.

They don't have to be. There are reasons, other than killing things, to use spells.

Unless magic is still really useful for teleportation in a pinch (not a stupid, lengthy, expensive-to-cast ritual of teleportation), manipulating the minds of others in an effective fashion, or rendering one impervious to attacks, or similar things you can't do with technology, then it's utterly pointless. And it would still have to be reasonably efficient and practical for those purposes to really have any place in the game setting.

This is a preposterous argument. Have you no imagination? Even a simple light spell is useful if it casts more light than a candle, torch or lantern; especially if it can’t be extinguished easily. A spell which can frighten even one person is powerful, if no-one else can do it. If no-one in the campaign can ‘render themselves impervious to attacks’ but you can make yourself and your friends harder to hit, even by as little as 5%, you’re a useful person to have around.

 

[Thomas Percy]

I recommend BIRTHRIGHT campaing setting.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I disagree - rare, expensive and weak is a perfectly valid setting choice if you want something resembling the real world.

Sooo........what you mean is, you want your setting to include a little magic, but have that magic be completely irrelevant, impotent, and a total waste of lots of time and money and effort on the spellcaster's part for no gain?

While not every novel or piece of fiction can be translated into an enjoyable RPG experience, there are several fanstasy settings out there that have very low magic, and no less enjoyable for all that.

Larry Niven's "Magic Goes Away" novels are set in a world in which the mana that powers magic is almost completely exhausted. Wizardry is only possible in certain remote locations, or after certain events, so wizards are essentially people with a lot of knowledge that they can rarely use. One character is (in D&D terms) a demilitch, who is only animate in those areas. The power of the magic that can be practiced is directly proportional to the amount of mana in an area.

Mary Gentle's "Chronicles of Ash" series is set in an alternate medieval Europe with little magic. Usually, its in the form of ritual magic or magic items- spellcasting is not a feature of combat, but rather, preparation for combat. The "golems" or clockwork men in the setting are fearsome opponents, but the number of them in the world can be counted on two hands.

Harry Turtledove's "Darkness" books have few spellcasters, but they can be quite powerful. However, once again, their most powerful spells are generally ritual magics. Things like Lightning bolts and combat summonings are rare. Necromancy has many uses, and is responsible for one of the most powerful spells in the story...

In CJ Cherryh's "Sabis" novels, magic is almost entirely absent.

In D&D, most of these worlds would be set up so that most combat evocations would be rare, but powerful, and things like Transmutations or Conjurations would have long durations.

 

[Corvus69]

I personally think that it's one of the best free d20-based rule variants out there and am surprised that it doesn't get more love (especially here at ENWorld, of all places). The author tends only to promote/discuss it at RPGnet and, for that matter, in one of the least visited sub-forums there (The Art of Game Design). I would really like to see him create an account here (if he doesn't already have one and, if he does, use it). I think that both Warheart and ENWorld posters would benefit greatly from such an arrangement

hello and thanks for nice words

My marketing skill leaves a lot to be desired but I actually have enworld account and I used to have a thread here just like on rpg.net some time ago, but it suddenly disappeared

I promise I will come here more often.. if some of you want to know more about d20 Warheart, feel free to ask!

 

[jdrakeh]

hello and thanks for nice words

My marketing skill leaves a lot to be desired but I actually have enworld account and I used to have a thread here just like on rpg.net some time ago, but it suddenly disappeared

There was a server malfunction last year and, I believe, that the back-ups of were also corrupted (hence, there was some unavoidable data loss).

I promise I will come here more often.. if some of you want to know more about d20 Warheart, feel free to ask!

Excellent! Thank you for your contributions!