Magic Items And Campaign Balance?

[AvarielAvenger]

I was engaged in a debate with another poster over in the D&D Rules forum about the neccessity of magic items for the balance of the game. I've made this new thread so the discussion can be continued in the proper forum, and to get other peoples opinions on the matter.

Basically, I am of the opinion that the DMG Wealth Tables for characters, and the magic items they are assumed to have are an integral part of the balance of the game.

If you take that away, certain classes with inherent magical abilities, like the Cleric, the Sorcerer, and even the Monk become "better" and more powerful than classes who rely on outside magic, like Fighters and Rogues.

Therefore, magic items should be available for purchase and trade in any campaign, simply to preserve the balance of the classes. In addition, I never thought the 2E way of doing things was very realistic, as if there's a profit to be made selling something, a market will exist, but for some reason that was never true of magic items.

His opinion is basically that magic items should be restricted, and other classes should rely on each other and do not need to be able to do equally, or at least nearly equally, in all challenges they face.

He holds that D&D is a group game, and therefore it's not bad to have, say, Wizards being the best at any one on one fighting because that's the way it's meant to be. He thinks it's unrealistic to allow adventurers free access to magic shops and other such amenities.

He also thinks that Fighters, Rogues and so on do not really need access to magic items to be on a par with classes such as the Sorcerer, Cleric and Monk.

He holds that no class should be able to meet any challenge (for example, he seems to think it's not really an issue that Sorcerers can far more easily deal with a flying creature than a Fighter without magic can), and doesn't think that every class should be able to meet almost any challenge if they have the appropiate amount of power.

So, what does everyone else think?

PS

Corran, if you think I misrepresented your position on the matter or was mistaken in a few of my comments, feel free to point that out and clarify your position on the matter.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

So, what does everyone else think?

I think it is his game table- and it does not impact me.

In my campeigns, I keep track of every magic item brought into the game (by character creation or adventuring) in a spreadsheet. I know who has every one of them. So, I have careful control over the power level of the campeign.

I have drowned the players in items in one campeign, and have starved them of items in another campeign.

Both campeigns worked perfectly fine.

Why? Because I had control of the challenges I threw at them- and I made it appropriate for their capabilities.

FD

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Game Balance

This is a thorny one.

IMO, the wealth tables work pretty well to balance things, but this is ultimately a question of flavor.

But spellcasters also benefit from magic items -- they can boost their spellcasting abilities, help protect them in combat, etc. Reducing the availability of magic items in the game world would impact everyone in the party -- maybe not quite equally, but the more rare magic is the more careful spellcasters will need to be. It should also be more difficult to find new spells, etc. As long as the DM is applying the restrictions evenly, it should balance out. But if magic, including scrolls of new spells, is available to some party members and not others, regardless of class, that can be unbalancing. Also, if magic is rare, it's possible that there isn't enough demand to make little shops selling components commonplace -- which means that all those material components would have to be gathered and accounted for by the spellcaster. That can be a huge pain.

So, you can have a lower magic world and still have it be balanced, as long as the level of magic is really lower for everyone, not just the non-spellcasters in the party.

-rg

 

[AvarielAvenger]

Re: Re: Magic Items And Campaign Balance?

I think it is his game table- and it does not impact me.

In my campeigns, I keep track of every magic item brought into the game (by character creation or adventuring) in a spreadsheet. I know who has every one of them. So, I have careful control over the power level of the campeign.

I have drowned the players in items in one campeign, and have starved them of items in another campeign.

Both campeigns worked perfectly fine.

Why? Because I had control of the challenges I threw at them- and I made it appropriate for their capabilities.

FD

Heh. That's not really an answer. You're not looking at this from a players perspective, you're looking at it from a DMs perspective. As the DM, you can make throwing gods or kobolds at a party workable, if you so desire.

Balance is not just about what the party can kill. It's about making everyone feel useful. I think that's one of the great things about 3E.... no one class is the out and out best class. In my opinion, a built in factor of this is the magic item level.

If you take that away, players who use Fighters, Rogues, etc. are probably going to feel less useful than a player who uses a Sorcerer or a Cleric, for example, since they simply can't do as much. That's just been my experience, however. And I'm simply asking what other peoples view on that issue is.

 

[Lord Ben]

I completely agree. It's why I don't play any living campaigns. If my fighter can't even use alchemist fires and fly potions that's silly.

In a world with no magic items fighters are hopelessly lost, no way to see invisible, no way to fly, etc.

 

[kengar]

I think Furn maks a solid point. If the DM controls the challenge levels as well as the nature of the challenges, then Magic Items (or a lack thereof) won't unbalance things.

I am personally a fan of limited magic items. But that is my preference. I also do things like limit Item Creation Feats available classes to keep spellcasters and non-spellcasters more in balance. Also, just because you don't like a "Magic Market" doesn't mean the party can't have magic items. Finding an item doesn't mean you can convert it to cash. In some worlds, adventurers are rare. What merchant is going to tie up tens of thousands of gp in a glowing sword he can't use and he might never sell?

IMC "permanent" magic items like rings and swords can only be found. I.C. Feats like Forge Ring are not available. A character can brew a potion or scribe a scroll, but he can't make armor or wondrous items, etc. Those items are gained by adventuring (loot) and their market value is lower than what the DMG says because of lower demand (few adventurers). That is my solution, but it fits an overall world design and may not work in other settings or other campaigns.

 

[AvarielAvenger]

Re: Game Balance

This is a thorny one.

IMO, the wealth tables work pretty well to balance things, but this is ultimately a question of flavor.

But spellcasters also benefit from magic items -- they can boost their spellcasting abilities, help protect them in combat, etc. Reducing the availability of magic items in the game world would impact everyone in the party -- maybe not quite equally, but the more rare magic is the more careful spellcasters will need to be. It should also be more difficult to find new spells, etc. As long as the DM is applying the restrictions evenly, it should balance out. But if magic, including scrolls of new spells, is available to some party members and not others, regardless of class, that can be unbalancing. Also, if magic is rare, it's possible that there isn't enough demand to make little shops selling components commonplace -- which means that all those material components would have to be gathered and accounted for by the spellcaster. That can be a huge pain.

So, you can have a lower magic world and still have it be balanced, as long as the level of magic is really lower for everyone, not just the non-spellcasters in the party.

-rg

Amusingly enough, Wizards can often be quite shafted in a low magic world now, because of lack of access to cheaper scribing methods or simply finding scrolls in the first place.

However, all this really does is make it so players will start choosing classes like the Sorcerer, Cleric and even Monk, whose power truly comes from within. The Sorcerer doesn't need to scribe spells, or find them, and Clerics just need their holy symbol to call upon their spells.

 

[Garmorn]

With out magic items it is hard for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rouges to improve their armor class. In fact the pratical upper limit is 22 from Mithral Full plate and Shield for heavy armor. The limit for light armor is about the same. By 5 or six level this means most monster won't have a problem hitting them, by 10 level even the average wizard will have a good chance of hitting them 40% of the time. The will have little or no defence against most magic and few or no ways to counter magical defences.

 

[Lord Ben]

If you're talking about balance in the NPC vs PC realm it's perfectly plausible to do. I can give one 6th level PC a masterwork greatsword, and the other a Holy Avenger and still have a balanced encounter, but the two PC's won't be balanced against each other.

In another thread someone made this comparison: What is more powerful, a 10th level fighter with his 49,000gp in loot, or a 15th level fighter with standard equipment? Most sane peope say the 10th level fighter will triumph. Now what's more powerful, a 10th level Wizard with all his magic items, or a 15th level wizard without magic items? Most people now say 15th level Wizard. If you don't have spells, magic items become your main way of beating things.

Magic weapons are the fighters bread and butter.

 

[Macbrea]

Since, 3e started we have played a few different campaigns. Our firsts campaign was set in a little shire that didn't have easy access to a market. During that game the characters recieved so many magic items they started throwing them in an armory. When your 10th level and the average NPC carries at least a +1 weapon they start to add up. My players noted that they could outfit their entire castle with magic weapons and armors.

The second campaign, we played in was a planescape game. After 6 levels my character had a +1 dagger and mithril chainshirt. Creatures we ran into, I just couldn't hurt. We also made the error of not taking very many spell casters with us. Things just were almost impossible to kill. We choose not to fight alot of things and run.

The Third campaign, we played has us with about the game book levels of wealth and magic items. We have to ability to sell aquired items in the large city that we are in and buy new items. Those items may take a month or two to have shipped to us but we can buy just about anything we can afford. This has resulted in a pretty balanced party with stuff they want to have. The game seems to be going quite well at this point. And creatures around our ECL are not impossible to deal with.

On a whole, I think the game assumes you will have at least what the NPC characters listed in the DMG has for magic items. This is amongst the minimums they expect to work. Running a none magic item world will result in some creature being much more powerful then they are suppose to be.