Magic items in Keep on the Borderlands

[SWBaxter]

That's an awful lot of magic items for low-level characters, ain't it?

The years might be prejudicing my memory, but I recall spending a fair amount of time on pretty much every 1ed module I ran adjusting the magical loot downwards. Low-level didn't have much to do with it, they were all loot-fests. One of the failings of the classics.

 

[Numion]

why do you think the BBEG weren't using them. and had them set aside. they didn't know what they were either. or were afraid to use them.. see the next answer.

They were magic none the less. Kinda screws over the argument that pre-3e had less magic. Somebody (in-game) had to manufacture the items, and boy did they!

Besides, how about the items in the keep? What's the theory on those?

Maybe PCs didn't end up with all the magic items - but the point is, there is more of magic than in 3e. I think that including rules for making magic items in 3e just gave an in-game explanation for pretty damn common occurence in D&D!

 

[diaglo]

They were magic none the less. Kinda screws over the argument that pre-3e had less magic. Somebody (in-game) had to manufacture the items, and boy did they!

i never said they weren't. who's arguing there wasn't magic in the earlier editions? the argument is: recognizing it as magic or using it with the knowledge of what it can do.

Besides, how about the items in the keep? What's the theory on those?

the ancestral arms and armor of the castellan or captain of the watch... still doesn't mean the NPC knows its power.


i think what Henry says is true. the fact that a 1st lvl PC can now make a scroll or a 3rd lvl PC can brew a potion and know all of the powers and ins and outs of the item make them appear more accessible. they may not be true. but it just shows the difference btw reality and appearance/illusion/ ye olde majick shoppe around the corner.

 

[der_kluge]

it was done on the T$R boards about 5 years ago.

Does it still exist? I'd like to see it.

 

[smootrk]

I think the debate over whether 3e has more or less magic than 1e/basic does not make sense. While KotBL might have a number of minor items listed, much of which is in the possession of persons who are never really meant to be defeated. First Edition and/or Basic Editions had no guidelines what-so-ever to guide a DM as to how much magic is appropriate. It was all in the realm of the DM's whims of how much a character should have, and it was not assumed that characters could purchase whatever they desired and could afford. They had to earn the magic items while adventuring.

The magic levels in KotBL is not so crazy when you take the arbitrary purchasing of whatever magic a character can afford out of the picture (as I do in my campaign). Level 3 characters (assuming by the end of the module) having a +1 weapon, +1 armor, +1 shield, a misc item, and a few consumables is not so overwhelming.

 

[Celebrim]

The years might be prejudicing my memory, but I recall spending a fair amount of time on pretty much every 1ed module I ran adjusting the magical loot downwards. Low-level didn't have much to do with it, they were all loot-fests. One of the failings of the classics.

Yeah, I tended to scratch 3-5 caches of magical items out of each module as well. I seem to remember an especially outrageous one in the otherwise excellent Ravenloft module.

I really think that the reason for all the magic in the keep is to make the keep's defenders absolutely overwhelming to a party of low levels that decide to loot the Keep instead of the Caves of Chaos, but modern DM's have more tools than existed in D&D and don't have to metagame quite so much.

For the record, the three BBEG's in the module with alot of treasure are the High Priest, the Minotaur, and the Wraith. In two out of those three cases, the plan to take thier treasure will likely fail. Two of them have a very good escape route and a vastly superior tactical position and will almost certainly get away from the PC's if things look like they aren't going there way. The other has a treasure whose benefit to the PC's is of dubious value.

If I were running KotB again, the main things that would bother me are:

1) The prevalance of magic items in the equipment of the lower ranking officials of the Keep. Most of these would disappear.
2) The vastly over equipped 4th level cleric of Chaos.
3) The fact that every suit of magical armor is a suit of plate mail +1.
4) The staff of healing is abit much to be giving low level characters.

But then again, I've also completely redrawn the KotB map for use the second time I ran it (senior year of high school). If I ran it again, I'd completely redraw it a third time, incorporating the changes from the 2nd version of the map and adding two sub-temples earlier in the complex, and a central arena complex in which disputing tribes settle thier differences/watch slaves fight/gamble/etc. I'd also probably redraw the Keep map completely and try to increase the intrigue in the town, detail out the NPC's a bit more, etc.

The possibility of a pretty cool mini-campaign for low level characters is there (hey I've done it twice already), it just would take alot of work to get it up to my current standards. The prevelance of magic is the least of my concerns, especially given that EGG was much better at finding inventive ways to hide the treasure than most modern dungeon designers seem to be.

 

[francisca]

I think I've always adjusted the treasures, both magic and mundane in every published adventure I've ever run, regardless of edition.

B2 is a bit overboard, and was back in the day, and this is from a guy who likes "WaHooo!" style dungeon crawls.

 

[Henry]

...While KotBL might have a number of minor items listed, much of which is in the possession of persons who are never really meant to be defeated. First Edition and/or Basic Editions had no guidelines what-so-ever to guide a DM as to how much magic is appropriate.

I disagree because even looking at the Caves only, there's quite a bit of magic - In my estimations I ignore the keep totally for the reasons you said, and also there are a number of things that Quas forgot, including the mad hermit in the woods with the +1 Dagger and some potions. Secondly, there was a guideline for fledgling DM's back then, and it was called...

Keep on the Borderlands.

There were a LOT of people who started with those basic boxed sets, and a LOT of them came with an intro adventure, especially B2, which was mine as well. Heck, B2 and S2 were the first modules I ever ran at age 10! (Don't ask what a bunch of 1st level characters were doing in White Plume Mountain... )

 

[the Jester]

It's interesting, if you look at the old modules, how much EGG disregarded his own advice on magic item distribution in the ol' 1e DMG...

 

[radferth]

Remember, back in the day (BD&D or AD&D) thieves and druids are about the only ones who would want any armor other than platemail. I don't know that 3edD&D has more magic items, but I certainly buy that it has more magic items that aren't weapon or armor + x. The big difference I notice in 3edD&D is that many DMs assume any decent sized town has some sort of amazingly well-stocked magic store or at least one NPC who will make any item to order. This seems to work well for groups that like to trick out their characters, but I like a game where magic is a bit less plentiful. On an vaguely related note, anyone whose does analysis on how much of the treasure is guarded my a monster that is particularly suseceptable to the treasure they are guarding (or were guarding something that could help defend against their special attack)? I don't remember the minotaur guarding a +2 cattle prod, but that type of thing was very common with the old Gygax modules (the ironic treasure items, not the actual cattle prod). Maybe the lower level of this one did not leave room for enough creatures that had special abilities.