Magic items in Keep on the Borderlands

[Quasqueton]

Many "old school" D&D gamers got there first game experience DMing or adventuring in the Caves of Chaos in the module B2 Keep on the Borderlands ("Introductory Module for Character Levels 1-3").

Magic items in the Caves of Chaos (64 numbered areas):

shield +1 (x3)
potion of healing (x4)
scroll of fireball
hand axe +1 (x2)
rope of climbing
arrow +1 (x6)
potion of invisibility
scroll of cure light wounds, hold person
potion of poison
wand of paralyzation (7 charges)
scroll of protection from undead (x2)
spear +1
staff of healing
plate mail +1 (x2)
potion of gaseous form (x2)
potion of growth
sword -1 cursed
elven boots
snake staff
scroll of detect magic, hold person, silence 15' radius
sword +2
helm of alignment change
wand of enemy detection (9 charges)
potion of stone to flesh (x6)
amulet of protection from turning (x28)
amulet of protection from good (x6)

Magic items in the Keep itself (27 numbered areas):

sword +1 (x3)
plate mail +1 (x6)
arrow +1 (x13)
shield +1 (x4)
mace +1 (x2)
scroll of hold person, silence 15' radius
dagger +1 (x4)
sword +2 (x3)
ring of protection +1 (x3)
snake staff
potion of healing (x5)
potion of ESP
potion of gaseous form
scroll of cure disease
scroll of hold person (x2)
scroll of cure light wounds (x3)
spear +1
ring of fire resistance
elven cloak and boots
potion of levitation

That's an awful lot of magic items for low-level characters, ain't it?

Quasqueton

 

[Crothian]

Even though I've run the module many many times, no one ever found everything or went every where. It is a nice module that players can explore parts and then do other adventures if the DM lets them; and then go back and explore more caves later.

But, ya, the caves are filled with gloriuos treasure.

 

[Cthulhu's Librarian]

The items in the keep aren't really for the player's to find. They'd have to take out the entire keep population to get everything there.

As for the caves, as many times as we played that adventure, and as hard as we tried, there is no way to "clean out the caves" and get everything. Sure, we always got more than our share of treasure, but never everything.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You know, this is an interesting observation, as it tends to support something I've long suspected, but never really looked into.

People--myself included--tend to talk about/think of 3E as being "higher magic," and more focused on magic items, than past editions. I don't think that's the case; I think it's just more overt about that fact. I suspect that you'd find that if you took an average character of any given level from 1E, 2E, and 3E--assuming campaigns that all gave treasure "by the book"--you'd find that 3E doesn't really assume a greater number of magic items. Rather, the reason 3E feels like it does is that the rules are written with that assumption in mind, thereby making it a little bit harder to not give magic by the book. I suspect that people who gave out fewer magic items in older editions than they do now were not, in fact, going 100% by the book back then.

This is, of course, only a theory, and a grocery list of items from a single classic module is insuficient to either prove or disprove this theory. But it's an interesting start.

 

[Quasqueton]

The items in the keep aren't really for the player's to find.

But they do set the example for DMs reading their first D&D book. In the keep, there are examples of what magic 3rd and 5th level characters may have.

Quasqueton

 

[VirgilCaine]

Given that a "default" run through will not give all the items, and that most of them are potions or scrolls or useless once you have more than two (platemail +1) or useless period (amulets of protection from turning), it isn't too bad, IMO. Now, if there's loads of coins and art and gems, that's a problem, but with the right background, this haul could make sense.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

A lot of the old classics had Monty Haul treasure distributions.

 

[Celebrim]

Well, you are slightly exaggerating the problem.

First, we can mostly exclude the keep because it can be assumed in general that the PC's will not launch an attack on the keep and the couple of exceptions could probably lead to a TPK played by a ruthless DM.

Second, we can exclude from the list items which are cursed, since these are intended as obstacles and not intended to be loot. Remember, 1st edition wouldn't have let items be conveinently turned into gold, and certainly not in large quanities.

Third, we can exclude anything from the list which a good aligned party probably would not benefit from. That shortens the list to the following:

Durable Items
-------------
hand axe +1 (x2)
spear +1
sword +2
shield +1 (x3)
plate mail +1 (x2)
dagger +1 (reward for saving the merchant's wife, assuming they did)
elven boots
snake staff
staff of healing
rope of climbing

Expendable Items
-----------------
potion of healing (x4)
scroll of fireball
arrow +1 (x6)
potion of invisibility
scroll of cure light wounds, hold person
wand of paralyzation (7 charges)
scroll of protection from undead (x2)
potion of gaseous form (x2)
potion of growth
scroll of detect magic, hold person, silence 15' radius
wand of enemy detection (9 charges)
potion of stone to flesh (x6)

Summarizing, the absolute most that a party could get out of the module if they looted everywhere that they were expected to loot was:

5 magic weapons (you missed one)
2 magic suits of armor
3 magic shields
2 staffs
2 misc. magic devices
2 wands
8 scrolls (counting each spell as a separate scroll)
14 potions

IIRC, a party that really throughly went through the module could expect to get to be 4th level at the end of it. I believe that the groups I had started out with 8 characters and ended up with 4-5. So let's say that after 50% losses, we've got 4 well equipped 4th level characters who found everything and didn't use any of the expendable items along the way. What would that mean?

The Fighter (4th Level)
-----------
Plate Mail +1
Shield +1
Spear +1
Sword +2
3 Potions

The Thief (4th level)
-------------------
Dagger +1
Elven Boots
Rope of Climbing
6 Arrows +1
4 Potions
4 Scrolls

The Cleric (4th level)
--------------------
Shield +1
Snake Staff
Staff of Healing
2 Wands
3 Potions
4 Scrolls

The Dwarf (4th level)
--------------------
Plate Mail +1
Shield +1
Hand Axe +1 (x2)
4 Potions

Remember, that's if the party found everything and only had to share the treasure among 4 characters and never used any of the treasure they found. In practice, much of the treasure would be so well hidden that it would be missed. In particular, one of the shields always struck me as being particularly hard to find. The rope isn't much better, and neither party I've run got the wand of enemy detection. And six surviving characters would have to spread the treasure more thinly.

So, how do the above characters look? With the exception of a few powerful items (the sword +2, the staff of healing), I seriously doubt the above party is that much better equipped that average parties of 4th level that started from 1st level in 3rd edition campaigns. In practice, I doubt anyone got out with that much loot unless the DM helped the PC's get it or they'd sneaked a peek at the module. Also remember that 4th level is effectively slightly higher in 1st edition than it is in 3rd because it takes alot more encounters to get there and you are relatively more powerful compared to monsters when you do. A 4th level 1st edition party has probably fought more stuff than a 6th level 3rd edition party.

 

[Quasqueton]

dagger +1 (reward for saving the merchant's wife, assuming they did)

Funny, but I left this item off my list because I knew someone would point to it as not actually being "in the caves". And they'd use it as a basis to discount the whole list.

People--myself included--tend to talk about/think of 3E as being "higher magic," and more focused on magic items, than past editions. I don't think that's the case; I think it's just more overt about that fact. I suspect that you'd find that if you took an average character of any given level from 1E, 2E, and 3E--assuming campaigns that all gave treasure "by the book"--you'd find that 3E doesn't really assume a greater number of magic items. Rather, the reason 3E feels like it does is that the rules are written with that assumption in mind, thereby making it a little bit harder to not give magic by the book. I suspect that people who gave out fewer magic items in older editions than they do now were not, in fact, going 100% by the book back then.

This was sort of my reason for posting this. I see D&D3 as just accepting the reality of normal game play (a good heaping of magic items). A +1 weapon was not rare and wonderous, by the standards published in the official game books, anymore back then that it is now.

I should count up the magic items in The Sunless Citadel for comparison.

And by the way (to everyone), TKotB is Basic D&D, not AD&D1.

Quasqueton

 

[Mouseferatu]

And by the way (to everyone), TKotB is Basic D&D, not AD&D1.

D'oh!

Sad thing is, not only did I know that, I was actively thinking about that fact while posting. Yet somehow, that didn't translate over to my later comment about the various editions being comperable.