magic weapon powers, keen,and Undead..?

[paulewaug]

Ok So lets say you have a Thundering Keen weapon and you make a roll that could threaten a Crtical hit against something that is not affected by crits, (Undead, Constructs)
Does this set off the magic effect?

(This would be the same for any "burst" weapons)

I just happen to have a PC with a Keen Thundering BastardSword


Sorry if this is addressed somewhere in the DMG or MM. I don't remember seeing anything about it though.

(I also DM so I would like to know for my own Campaign, as well as the reason above. Not that it matters If this is either a Good Question or an SQ .
If it wouldn't I would probably Rule 0 it that- on At Least a Natural 20 the "burst" would go off.)

Thanks in advance!

 

[JChung2003]

Since a critical hit can never be successful against a construct or undead, I would say no, it doesn't.

However, if you disagree, I would still go through with the standard resolution of critical hits to determine if the burst or thundering effect went off, rather than just applying it on natural 20's.

Also, both constructs and undead are immune to the deafening effect of the thundering property since it requires a Fortitude save and does not affect objects. I'm going by the blindness/deafness spell description and assuming that both constructs and undead hear by extraordinary (rather than mundane or magical) means.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Check out the Mace of Smiting in the DMG.

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

resolve the crit normally, just don't multiply the weapon's damage on things that arn't vulnerable to critical hits.


So in other words - yeah, Burst, Thundering, etc would still go off.

 

[JChung2003]

Why qualify the term "critical hit" with the adjective "successful" then in the burst and thundering special ability descriptions?

That could suggest that a critical hit (regardless of whether it was successful or not) from a mace of smiting destroys constructs, but that a successful critical hit is still required to apply the bonus damage from a burst or thundering weapon.

The rules could use clarification since "successful" could be interpreted as making a "successful" attack roll after a critical threat has been established, regardless of whether the creature is subject to critical hits, or "successfully" doing critical damage to a monster with a critical hit, which only applies to a creature that is subject to critical hits.

Not a big deal. Just apply the bonus damage if it makes the sun shine brighter for you.

 

[kreynolds]

Does this set off the magic effect?

Not according to the Sage.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

Re: Re: magic weapon powers, keen,and Undead..?

Not according to the Sage.

Damn his oily hide!

 

[Sejs]

Not according to the Sage.

Then in this reguard he is a big ol doody-head.

To paraphrase the Mace of Smiting entry (DMG, p189)

"...and any critical hit dealt to a construct completely destroys it (no saving throw)...

Says to me you -can- crit on things that are immune to critical hits. Their immunity to the hit's effects (eg - increased damage from the physical blow) doesn't change the fact that you scored a critical hit.

Just like an elemental's immunity to fire wouldn't change the fact that you cast a fireball into the room it was in.

 

[Hackenslash]

Hello All,

For my 2 Cents, I would say that if a creature is immune to criticals then it is in theory impossible to do critical damage against the creature. However, if there is a special effect or type of damage that may be in an area then the "Critical" effect, not necessarily the Bonus Damage, would still go off but just not damage the creature, but maybe damage others not immune nearby, depending on the effect etc... But then again, if the weapon in question is specifically designed to damage particular types of creatures, for the example the aforementioned "mace of smiting" then critical hits from this weapon would effect a "Construct" for instance, who would normally be immune to critical effects. However a Keen weapon would be no more effective than a normal weapon or magic weapon for Critical Hits, against a crature immune to critcal effects. Regarding weapons effect and critical damage, well I would interpret the rules, that if an Undead for example was hit by a Flaming Burst weapon, then it would take the "Bonus Fire Damage" but not the added "Critical x2 or x3 etc.." damage as it's immune to Critical Damage, but not to the effect that the Weapon or Critical effect created. Anyway that's my thoughts on this thread. Hope it helps.....

 

[kreynolds]

To paraphrase the Mace of Smiting entry (DMG, p189)

Note that the original question of this thread was in regards to Thundering. The Sage does not dispute the functioning of Smiting and disruption weapons, as they use special rules. Burst weapons and thundering weapons do not use special rules.

Here's the whole reply from the Sage on this matter...

The “mace of smiting” states that it destroys a construct on a critical hit, but constructs are immune to critical hits. I presume this enchantment is meant to be an exception to the rule that constructs are immune to crits, but that raises other questions. If the mace wielder has the feat Improved Critical, does that improve the threat range to destroy a construct? What happens with other magical weapons with special effects on a critical hit? For example, does a “flaming burst longsword” burst for extra fire damage when you roll a critical vs. a creature immune to critical hits? Are critical immune creatures immune to the sonic burst from the “thundering” enchantment?

Smiting and disruption weapons use the critical rules for their special effects, even though undead and constructs are not subject to critical hits. The Improved Critical feat does not affect these weapons.

Burst weapons rely on confirmed critical hits. If the opponent is not subject to critical hits, burst weapons don't burst.