magic weapon powers, keen,and Undead..?

And that wasn't my point. My point was that Vorpal is a really poor (from my perspective) example to further your argument, as it also uses its own subset of rules. It's an exception to the rules in and of itself.

Why? What makes it an exception, to the rules that we're actually concerned about in this discussion?

It has an ability - chopping the head off - that activates on a successful critical hit. The text makes it apparent that this ability functions on undead and constructs.

The effects on the creature that has its head chopped off are up to the DM, but that doesn't change the fact that the ability activates on a successful critical, and can affect undead and constructs.

Where is there anything to suggest it's an exception?

To me, it sets a clear precedent that "successful critical hit" can apply to creatures immune to criticals, and therefore "successful critical hit" must mean "confirmed critical threat", not "critical hit that actually does extra damage".

The further-reaching consequence is that Heavy Fortification is not, in fact, protection against a Vorpal weapon. Fortification will prevent the extra damage from the critical, but if a mummy can have its head chopped off, so can a Fighter in Fortified Armor.

-Hyp.
 

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Hypersmurf said:
Why? What makes it an exception, to the rules that we're actually concerned about in this discussion?

It has an ability - chopping the head off - that activates on a successful critical hit. The text makes it apparent that this ability functions on undead and constructs.

Exactly. Thus, it's an exception. Why? Flaming Burst doesn't go off on a construct. Why? Because you can't crit it. Furthermore on the 'why' part, because the text of flaming does not call it out as an exception as vorpal does.

Vorpal chops off heads on a crit.
It states it'll chop the head off of a construct.
Thus, it functions on a crit against constructs.

Flaming burst functions on a crit.
You can't crit constructs, and it makes no exceptions.
No burst on a construct.

Does that help any?

Hypersmurf said:
To me, it sets a clear precedent that "successful critical hit" can apply to creatures immune to criticals, and therefore "successful critical hit" must mean "confirmed critical threat", not "critical hit that actually does extra damage".

If I didn't see vorpal, the mace of smiting, and disruption weapons as exceptions, I would definately agree.

Hypersmurf said:
The further-reaching consequence is that Heavy Fortification is not, in fact, protection against a Vorpal weapon.

One of those "DM judgement calls", I'd wager, seeing as how the intent of Heavy Fortification is also quite clear in that you're completely, totally, 100% protected from critical hits, and seeing as how it's the same market price as vorpal, allowing vorpal to affect it isn't balanced, nor fair, at all.
 
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Exactly. Thus, it's an exception. Why? Flaming Burst doesn't go off on a construct. Why? Because you can't crit it. Furthermore on the 'why' part, because the text of flaming does not call it out as an exception as vorpal does.

But Vorpal doesn't call it an exception.

Neither does Smiting.

They have effects that function on crits, and they affect constructs.

Nowhere does it say that effects that function on crits don't trigger against creatures normally immune to crits.

Nowhere does it say "this is an exception to the normal rule that constructs are immune to criticals".

We know that the normal effect of a critical - extra damage - does not apply to a construct. We know that effects triggered off a crit - namely Smiting and Vorpal - do affect constructs. Since this is not stated as an exception, it can be generalised.

One of those "DM judgement calls", I'd wager, seeing as how the intent of Heavy Fortification is also quite clear in that you're completely, totally, 100% protected from critical hits, and seeing as how it's the same market price as vorpal, allowing vorpal to affect it isn't balanced, nor fair, at all.

Heavy Fortification is half the market price of Vorpal.

+1 Heavy Fortification Armor costs 36k. A +1 Vorpal Sword costs 72k.

-Hyp.
 

Here are all the SRD weapon that have special abilities triggered by critical hits. You may note that the language of "successful criticial hit" is not used for Flame Tongue, Mace of Smiting, Nine Lives Stealer or Sword of Life Stealing, thus negating that part of the argument that was postulated early on.

As for the Mace of Smiting making a special exception - maybe so. Of course, that's only implied, and the Sage went even further in declaring that the Improved Critical feat would not apply.

We can only hope they tighten up the language used for Mace of Smiting to fix this problem.

There are two schools of thought on this, really:

(1) Mace of Smiting is special and simply does not follow the rules. Nothing about the Mace of Disruption can be applied to other weapons, because its special.

(2) All special critial effects can occur even if the target is immune to critical hits.

Frankly, number (2) is the far simpler rule, but neither one can really be justified by the rules as written. You have to figure out what is implied by the way the rules were written. This, of course, means that both sides of this argument can easily prevail because the rules simply are written so poorly that you can easily justify either approach.

The Sage's ruling is reasonable except for the Improved Critical exception. For that to be true you have to pull out even more from the Mace of Smiting than exists in the text.

Flaming Burst
Upon command a flaming burst weapon deals +1d6 points of bonus fire damage on a successful hit. In addition it also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit

Icy Burst
Upon command an icy burst weapon deals +1d6 points of bonus cold damage on a successful hit. In addition it also explodes with frost upon striking a successful critical hit

Shocking Burst
Upon command an shocking burst weapon deals +1d6 points of bonus electricity damage on a successful hit. In addition it also explodes with electricity upon striking a successful critical hit

Thundering
A thundering weapon creates a cacophonous roar like thunder upon striking a successful critical hit

Vorpal
This enchantment allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a successful critical hit, the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body

Flame Tongue
This is a +1 flaming burst longsword (+1d6 points of fire damage with each hit, +1d10 points of bonus fire damage on a critical).

Mace of Smiting
This +3 heavy mace has a +5 enhancement bonus against constructs, and any critical hit dealt to a construct completely destroys it (no saving throw). Furthermore, a critical hit dealt to an outsider deals x4 critical damage rather than x2.

Nine Lives Stealer
This longsword always performs as a +2 longsword, but it also has the power to draw the life force from an opponent. It can do this nine times before the ability is lost. At that point, the sword becomes a simple +2 longsword . A critical hit must be dealt for the sword’s death-dealing ability to function

Sword of Life Stealing
This +2 longsword bestows a negative level when it deals a critical hit

Finally:
Critical Hits
When a character makes an attack roll and gets a natural 20, the character hits regardless of the target's AC, and the character has scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, the character immediately makes a critical roll — another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll the character just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, the character's original hit is a critical hit. If the critical roll is a miss, then the character's hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that the attacker rolls for damage more than once, as indicated by the weapon description for the weapon that scored the threat, with all the attacker's usual bonuses, and add the rolls together to get total damage.

Note that there is NO distinction between a "critical hit" and a "successful critical hit." There is only a "threat" and a "critical hit." The terms "critical hit" and "successful critical hit" are synonomous.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Nowhere does it say that effects that function on crits don't trigger against creatures normally immune to crits.

Well, if you can't crit them, and it doesn't say otherwise...

Hypersmurf said:
Nowhere does it say "this is an exception to the normal rule that constructs are immune to criticals".

Sure it does. The Mace of Smiting says it makes them go kablooey on a crit, and since you can't crit a construct but the weapon works anyway, it's an exception.

Hypersmurf said:
We know that the normal effect of a critical - extra damage - does not apply to a construct. We know that effects triggered off a crit - namely Smiting and Vorpal - do affect constructs. Since this is not stated as an exception, it can be generalised.

I don't think it can, not with merit, anyway.

Hypersmurf said:
Heavy Fortification is half the market price of Vorpal.

+1 Heavy Fortification Armor costs 36k. A +1 Vorpal Sword costs 72k.

Only by the sheer virtue that all weapons are double the cost of all armor. No matter the function, on armor its normal, on a weapon its double.
 

kreynolds said:
...Sure it does. The Mace of Smiting says it makes them go kablooey on a crit, and since you can't crit a construct but the weapon works anyway, it's an exception....

Or, equally valid, the Mace of Smiting is the example of the rule that states that all special effects work even if the creature is immune to criticals.

Either way.

DM choice - or follow the Sage's advice, if you like.
 


Hypersmurf said:

Now, perhaps. Before, your point seemed to be that I was wrong, as I was merely "making the assumption that Smiting is an exception again". ;)

However, at this point, I have to concede that either point could be valid (thanks Artoomis).
 

Now, perhaps. Before, your point seemed to be that I was wrong, as I was merely "making the assumption that Smiting is an exception again". ;)

I wasn't saying you were wrong, but I was saying you were making that assumption.

Given the assumption, you were not wrong. But I don't think you can make that assumption and state that it's "clearly obvious". It's only clearly obvious if you write in a rule that isn't there :)

Without that rule, it's not clearly obvious at all... which was my point :)

-Hyp.
 

cool discussion

Heh, thanks for the input everybody.

I can see the argument both ways, and I guess the problem is that you could both right, but only one of the answers is true.

What a conundrum.

But I have to agree with the idea that the "Burst" goes off
if the conditions of the Weapon are met, not the ability of the "victim" to resist it.
Such as with a Vorpal weapon it simply has a "burst of severing" ;)

So IMC I will allow the burst to be triggered as "normal” and then it is up to the target creature to resist it based on it's own defenses. Such as the Undead not being affected by the critical hit doing double-triple damage...
I see the crit power of the weapon as being the "trigger" of the element and Burst should be (IMHO) an Upgrade of the persistent elemental damage powers of a weapon. It just so happens that Thundering doesn't have a "persistent" power (Such as "flaming" does) but instead causes deafness and has the ability to damage bypass more creatures’ resistances.


So I am not saying this is the "right way" but it is how I will handle it IMC.
Thanks for all the input!!
 

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