Making the Kobold a playable race

[Kobold Avenger]

These were the stats I gave Kobolds before, which is pretty similiar to all the other ideas except for the bonus feat part and choice of craft skill bonus.

Kobold Racial Traits
• +2 dex, -4 str, Kobolds are quick and agile but are quite physically weak.
• +1 natural armour
• Small Humanoid (Reptilian), as small creatures they get +1 to attack and defense, +4 to hide checks and -4 to grapple checks.
• Darkvision 60 feet.
• Land Speed 30 feet.
• +2 racial bonus to Search and Profession (Mining) checks as well as any one craft skill of the players choice.
• Kobolds can use dexterity as a modifier for climb and jump checks instead of strength
• One bonus feat.
• Automatic Languages: Draconic/Kobold and national language or common.
• Favoured Class: Sorcerer for most Kobolds, Psion for Gem Kobolds, Shaman for Long Kobolds.

They are as many Kobold subraces as there are types of True Dragons (as defined in the Draconomicon), though the most common are Chromatic, Metallic and Gem Kobolds (15 in total). Still there are varieties like Shadow Kobolds, Fang Kobolds, Shen Kobolds (aka Shen Long-Zi), Rust Kobolds, and Tian Kobolds (Tian Long-Zi).

Kobold subrace only reflects on alignment tendecies (though most kobolds are neutral with some bias towards their respective dragon ancestor type), favoured class and towards certain racial feats they can pick.

 

[AnthonyJ]

Note 1: the standard (3.5) kobold also has -2 Con. This means the stat modifiers for kobolds are fairly crippling. However, Small size, 30' movement, darkvision, and natural armor +1 are actually a pretty decent set of special abilities.

One option for making them balanced is simply saying that PC kobolds are particularly exceptional, and giving them +2 Str and Con, plus maybe removing the light sensitivity. That's still probably not equal to a halfling, but it's not bad. Give them a minor draconic heritage effect, such as energy resistance 5 for one type, and I'd call it a pretty decent race.

There's one other option: make no changes to the race from the MM, but give them an LA of -1 (so they start with 2 class levels and an ECL of 1). Still not really worthwhile as a fighter class, but +1 level might make up for being weak in rogue or spellcasting classes.

 

[Nifft]

There's one other option: make no changes to the race from the MM, but give them an LA of -1 (so they start with 2 class levels and an ECL of 1). Still not really worthwhile as a fighter class, but +1 level might make up for being weak in rogue or spellcasting classes.

I might allow one free level of Humanoid (HD d8, lame skill points, no XP penalty for multiclassing into a real class) for the 3.5e Core Kobold, but not one free level of any real class -- particularly not a spellcasting class!

-- N

 

[Nail]

I'm working on an ECL +0 Kobold.....

Resurrecting an older thread...

I've got a player interesting in playing a kobold. There are some great campaign reasons for this....and since the rest of my players read ENWorld, just take as a "given" that the core 3.5e rules for kobolds are insufficient.

In figuring out what to give kobolds (in additiona to the core version -- I'm not making a huge change here), I thought it would be useful to compare them to 2 other PC races, the halfling and the gnome.

**********************************************************
_Kobolds_            _Halflings_          _Gnomes_

-4 Str, +2 Dex,      -2 Str, +2 Dex       -2 Str, +2 Con
+2 Int, +2 Chr

Small size           Small size           Small size

Mv 30ft              Mv 20ft              Mv 20ft

Darkvision 90',      Normal vision        Low-light vision
Light Sensitivity
 (dazzled -1 Atk,
  -1 Spot & Search)

+2 Craft(trapmak.),  +2 Climb,            +2 Craft(alch.),
+2 Prof(miner),      +2 Jump,             +2 Listen
+2 Listen,           +2 Mv. Silently,
+2 Search            +2 Listen

+3 Nat. Armor        --                   +4 Dodge vs. Giants

--                   +1 all saves,        +2 save vs. Ill.
                     +2 bonus vs. Fear    +1 DC Ill. Spells

--                   +1 all thrwn weap.   +1 Atk vs. goblinoids,
                                              & kobolds
                                          Weap. Fmlr:Hook Hamr.

Sp. Abil.(1/day):    --                   Sp. Abil.(1/day):
  *Mending                                  *Spk w/ Animal
  *Message                                  *Dancing Lights
                                            *Ghost Sound
                                            *Prestidigitation

Languages:           Languages:           Languages:
  *Draconic            *Halfling            *Gnomish
                       *Common              *Common

Favored Class:       Favored Class:       Favored Class:
  Sorcerer             Rogue                Bard
**********************************************************

 

[DrSpunj]

I've got a player interesting in playing a kobold. There are some great campaign reasons for this....and since the rest of my players read ENWorld, just take as a "given" that the core 3.5e rules for kobolds are insufficient.

In figuring out what to give kobolds (in additiona to the core version -- I'm not making a huge change here), I thought it would be useful to compare them to 2 other PC races, the halfling and the gnome.

Being one of those "ENWorld reading" players, and since you chimed in on my thread in the Rules forum on this very subject...

With +2 Dex, +2 Int, 30' mv, Darkvision 90', +3 Natural Armor, +2 Search, +2 Listen this Kobold makes a better Rogue than the Halfling, IMO.

The drawbacks vs a Halfling are:

• an additional -2 Strength -- easily overcome since you have +4 ability points from Int & Cha to spare for a respectable Strength score, even with the standard 25 point buy
• Light Sensitivity -- can be significant depending on the campaign, but can be overcome with a magic item or a feat
• Lack of Saving Throw bonuses -- gets +3 NA instead, an even trade, IMO
• Poorer Rogueish Skill Set [Search vs Climb/Jump/Move Silently] -- the +2 Int gives +23 skill points over the PC's lifetime; even using 4-6 to balance these Halfling bonuses (and another 2 for Language: Common) there's still a plethora to go around for other things
• You're a Kobold Rogue! Not an upstanding member of society like, uh, well, a Halfling Rogue! -- seriously, this a roleplaying limitation; YMMV, but I'm firmly in the camp of those who believe that game mechanics should not be balanced with roleplaying factors

The advantages over and above those I mentioned above are:

• +10' base speed -- one of the biggest drawbacks of being Small is no longer a problem, and as a Rogue or Sorcerer, they'll likely be in Light Armor to take advantage of it
• Darkvision 90' -- a HUGE benefit where adventurers often find themselves - underground and out at night - by helping to keep them from being surprised and flat-footed; and 90' is equal to or greater than most anything else outlined in the game; it also allows them to Sneak Attack in the dark (something that Halflings can't do with Normal Vision) and be stealthier than a Halfling (since they can actually see in the dark); true, the Halfling can use a magic item here, but IIRC the one for the Kobold is cheaper; furthermore, IME, most DMs are freer with Magic Items that remove penalties rather than Magic Items that power-up a PC, YMMV
• Spell-like Abilities [Mending, Message] -- useful for scouting Rogues to let the party know what's going on, useful for Sorcerers as two extra spells known (even if they are Cantrips and available only 1/day); this one isn't as big as the other two, but it's still something else

So other than roleplaying reasons, can you explain why you believe someone would choose a Halfling Rogue over the Kobold Rogue you've described above? Mechanically speaking?

Many claim Half-Orcs are okay because they are balanced against their Favored Class: Barbarian. If we look at the Kobold, and try to balance it against its Favored Class: Sorcerer, your version comes out VERY strong, IMO, probably enough that I'd give a LA of +1 now.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

Arg. I wish this page wasn't so Wide! I think it's the code commands, right? Grrr. I'd like a nice simple

tag, or something.

With +2 Dex, +2 Int, 30' mv, Darkvision 90', +3 Natural Armor, +2 Search, +2 Listen this Kobold makes a better Rogue than the Halfling, IMO.

I'm unsure. Hence the post.

Before I go point for point:

• I whole-heartedly agree that role-playing bonuses or penalties don't factor into the ECL, which is what we're factoring here.
• I diagree with the tactic: "A magic item could take care of this." Magic items are irrelevant.

Okay, now to the points:

Point buy:
Kobolds get pretty good bonuses here....however that -4 Str really hurts in all but Sor and Wiz. Given how combat works, even a sneak attacking rogue is hurt with Str. So kobolds would make poorer Rogues, all in all. They would make good Sor, though.

Light Sensitivity/Darkvision:
The pairing here is intentional. From one you get the other. As for ways around the light sensitivity...well, there are similar ways to gain Darkvision. A draw, I'd say.

Lack of Saving Throw bonuses
Here's where I'm waffling. I'm thinking a +2 Nat. Armor might be better. But before you leap to that, check out what the halfling and gnome get instead => saves and bonuses to hit.

Skills: Halfling shines here. As to higher skill points over the PCs lifetime....well, that's true, but not all that compelling. Still it is a point. Perhaps strike the +2 Int? Hmmmm.....

Speed: Yup, the kobold's got this one covered. A definate advantage.

Darkvision 90'
As above, but....your likely to see more monsters with this, especially if there's Light Sensitivity. (An aside: Orcs, IMC, do not have Light Sensitivity, so their Darkvision is 60'.)

Spell-like Abilities [Mending, Message]
Not too shabby, but not game breaking

...out of time!!!!!

 

[Tuzenbach]

OK, about this whole Kobold breath weapon thing.....

Don't you guys think that the weapon's stats should change as the character rises in level? I do.

Number of times usable should equal the character's level per hour. Hence, a third level Kobold can use his breath weapon 3 times an hour.

The breath weapon can be used in the same round as the Kobold would make his or her normal attacks, or "in addition to" as opposed to "instead of".

1st Level: 1d2 damage, 1 foot range

2nd Level: 1d3 damage, 2 foot range

3rd Level: 1d4 damage, 3 foot range

4th Level: 1d4+1 damage, 4 foot range

5th Level: 1d6+1 damage, 5 foot range

6th Level: 1d6+2 damage, 6 foot range

7th Level: 2d6+1 damage, 7 foot range

8th Level: 2d6+2 damage, 8 foot range

9th Level: 3d6+1 damage, 9 foot range

10th Level: 3d6+2 damage, 10 foot range

Etc., etc., etc.............

Yes, the damage is silly at first and the Kobold has to be literally standing on his opponent's feet, but I think it's pretty balanced relative to other low level characters.

Also, bear in mind that a breath weapon (last time I checked, anyway) is equivalent to having a magic weapon and that characters don't normally run into foes that can only be hit via magic weapons until at least 4th level.

And let's say that the Kobold's party gets captured and imprisoned. The captors can remove the party's weapons and take away spell components but they won't be able to remove the breath weapon from the Kobold. Better to kill it then, right?

I'm just saying that a character with a breath weapon is a major major thing and shouldn't be treated with such "nonchalance".

Under my plan, the initial breath weapon is essentially a point blank melee weapon usable once per hour. At 20th level, however, it can be used 20 times an hour, has a distance of 20 feet (effectively a ranged weapon, then), and generally won't spell the demise of captured Kobolds providing they're at a very low level (which, incidentally, is when most characters get themselves captured anyway!).

I think the fact that I see it as "in addition to" regular attacks (whether those be spells, sneak attacks, whatever) makes up for the fact that the range and damage and rate are ridiculously low at menial levels.

Further, I believe it simulates very well the whole concept of a character progressing (i.e., getting more powerful gradually) in levels.





OK, flame away!





(Just make sure you're a 1st level Kobold!)






;~D

 

[Nail]

In 3.5e, ranges are in 5 foot increments. It makes combat run more smoothly. After all, if you are in the square next to an opponent, does you 1ft long breath weapon hit him? Probably not, eh?

Also, I think a breath weapon for a kobold, dragon-kin or no, is silly. YMMV.

 

[DrSpunj]

Before I go point for point:

• I whole-heartedly agree that role-playing bonuses or penalties don't factor into the ECL, which is what we're factoring here.
• I diagree with the tactic: "A magic item could take care of this." Magic items are irrelevant.

Good, that makes this discussion easier I think.

Point buy:
Kobolds get pretty good bonuses here....however that -4 Str really hurts in all but Sor and Wiz. Given how combat works, even a sneak attacking rogue is hurt with Str. So kobolds would make poorer Rogues, all in all. They would make good Sor, though.

Which is their Favored Class, and what we're trying to balance it against according to the Core Rules, right?

Aside from the Sorcerer, let's go back to the Rogue you bring up. They get an additional -2 Str over a Halfling, so in normal light they get -1 attack and damage, that's true. In bright light they get an additional -1, so Halflings are ahead here too (though I don't know how many Rogues commonly do their nasty work in sunshine or a Daylight spell). Now, if in darkness it went a couple points the other way, this would be balanced. However, taking everything you're offering the Kobold Rogue, they end up with huge bonuses in the dark. Why? Darkness, Concealment and Sneak Attack. While a Halfling Rogue would likely get killed in natural darkness, the Kobold is in his element. His Darkvision denies his opponent Concealment, allowing him to apply his Sneak Attack damage to an effectively blind opponent. A -1 to attack (from the additional -2 Str penalty) here becomes a damage equal to WeaponDmg -1 (minimum 1) + SA (minimum 1 per d6), for a minimum of 2 (could be +6!) at the first couple levels then rapidly scaling from there. -1 for +1 is a Power Attack trade at 1st & 2nd level, and beyond that it's a price well worth paying.

Furthermore, the Ability mods total 0 for the Halfing & Gnome, while the Kobold ends up with a net +2. In Dex and Int that's useful to nearly every class but especially the Rogue, and +2 to Cha for their Favored class is golden. Even if Cha wasn't your thing for your Kobold Rogue, that bonus does allow you to move 2 points over to help your Strength out. Buying a 14 Str under point-buy doesn't lose you anything (not like buying a 15 or higher does), and with a -4 the Kobold still ends up without a Str penalty.

Finally, I think I've brought this up before with you in other discussions about the Half-orc, but I don't believe Strength is worth more than the other abilities in a well-balanced campaign (combat, roleplaying, puzzles, etc.) and therefore a change in Strength does not merit a greater change to the mental stats, IMO. YMMV.

Light Sensitivity/Darkvision:
The pairing here is intentional. From one you get the other. As for ways around the light sensitivity...well, there are similar ways to gain Darkvision. A draw, I'd say.

If the Kobold had the typical Darkvision range of 60' like most other races including Dwarves, Half-orcs, Orcs, the MM's Kobolds, etc, then I might agree you. As it is, the additional +30' translates into quite a bit power for most classes. Sticking with the Sorcerer, starting a combat at 90' vs 60' means it's quite likely the encounter could end with a good Medium range spell before the enemy is able to close, even with a charge. For the Kobold Rogue, scouting in the dark and being able to see your opponent before they have any chance of seeing you is a tremendous advantage(reference party sneaking up on orc campsite at night here ). Only a Dwarf or Half-orc Rogue could even attempt such a manuever without some form of light, and then the Darkvision ranges are equal at 60', so everyone involved is at least on equal ground.

Lack of Saving Throw bonuses
Here's where I'm waffling. I'm thinking a +2 Nat. Armor might be better. But before you leap to that, check out what the halfling and gnome get instead => saves and bonuses to hit.

Agreed. As I said before, it's a wash. Still, no feat gives +3 to AC (nor +2 for that matter), let alone something a Human could take at first level, and with this plus their Small size and the +2 Dex, every Kobold starts off naked with a base 15 AC. No matter what class you'd make me choose, sign me up!

Now I know you didn't want to focus on Magic Items, but I think it's pretty telling here that the Halfling's major bonus in this category is equivalent to a Cloak of Resistance +1 for a mere 1000gp, while the Kobold's bonus is worth either 8000gp (+2 Amulet) or 18000gp (+3 Amulet).

Skills: Halfling shines here. As to higher skill points over the PCs lifetime....well, that's true, but not all that compelling. Still it is a point. Perhaps strike the +2 Int? Hmmmm.....

*cough* Excuse me? Really? Shine?

Let's ignore the Kobold's Trapmaking and Miner bonuses for now, as they aren't worth diddly for the most part. That leaves both the Kobold and the Halfling with +2 Listen, something good for all PCs. +2 Search is something most all PCs would also enjoy, probably quite a bit more than +2 to Climb, Jump or Move Silently, but let's say anyone of those is a fair trade. That leaves +2 to two of those other skills the Halfling gets.

Are you telling me if I gave you the choice of +2 Int, which yields enough skill points at 1st level to cancel out the remaining Halfling bonus (if they're class skills, or 4 skill points of your choice if they're not) and gives a +1 to a respectably number of Int-based skills plus an extra skill point per level (a large part of the Human's perks, and no feat gives you +3 AC), you'd rather take +2 to two of Climb, Jump and Move Silently? Really? Should we start a Poll thread?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be harsh, but I think this point ends up firmly on the side of the Kobold. Oh yeah, now let's add back the +2 to Craft and Miner that we ignored before.

Speed: Yup, the kobold's got this one covered. A definate advantage.

Good! We agreed on something!

Darkvision 90'
As above, but....your likely to see more monsters with this, especially if there's Light Sensitivity. (An aside: Orcs, IMC, do not have Light Sensitivity, so their Darkvision is 60'.)

That's two! But I think this is where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Spell-like Abilities [Mending, Message]
Not too shabby, but not game breaking

Nope, not at all. Nifty, really. But what does the Halfling have on his side again?

So I've got a Kobold Rogue being even or slightly ahead for Ability scores & his Natural Armor bonus, with solid pluses over Halfling Rogues for Darkvision, Skills, Speed and his minor Spell-like Abilities, with a solid point on the downside for the Light Sensitivity.

Still seeing the Kobold at a +1 for Favored Class Sorcerer OR Rogue. BTW, I was serious up above: if this is campaign's Kobolds, when my PC dies/retires, I'm coming back as a Kobold, no question. It's that good, Nail.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

Okay: Propose adjustments. Videssian, respond.