Making the Kobold a playable race

[Nail]

Anyone, not a player of mine, have a comment or two?

How about if I offer you a cookie?

 

[DrSpunj]

As an aside: I think Half-orcs are unbalanced, as are dwarves (in opposite directions). I believe we've had this discussion before, though, so we should probably "table" it.

Fine, but I think it's relevant (looking at both Dwarves and Half-Orcs, actually), especially if you want to look at other NPC races for Natural Armor bonuses. Heck, take a look at the Drow since they also have Darkvision (60' I think).

Wow. That's so firmly ECL +0, I think I'm getting dizzy.

Then stop spinning in circles, it's affecting your judgement.

It's still not balanced to me against its Favored Class: Sorcerer. For that reason I still give it a +1 LA.

Take it point by point. Out of everything you list as qualities, what does a Sorcerer hate/lose?

Light Sensitivity, which for Ray spells and Ranged Touch attacks the -1 penalty is balanced out by the +2 Dex, and the -1 to Search and Spot are more than balanced by the +2 Int and the +2 racial bonus to Search. So, why's this supposed to be a negative again? The built-in features of the class mean for melee attacks he's -2 in normal light and -3 in daylight. For a Sorcerer, big whoop! While I admit that makes playing a Rogue less appealing, we're not balancing the class against a Rogue!

Umm, nothing else...oh wait, they don't know Common either. Well, that's 2 of the bonus skill points from the 23 they'll get over the lifetime of the character for +2 Int. They get half the benefits of being Human right there (minus the 2 skill points for knowing Common).

It's still a +1 LA for Favored Class: Sorcerer. Even for some other concepts, it's...Dwarfish.

I still want to play one for my next character, which I'll agree right now, if you want, won't be a Sorcerer.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[CRGreathouse]

KOBOLD CHARACTERS
Kobold characters possess the following racial traits:
–4 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks.
Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity.
Natural Armor +2
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—mending, message. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + kobold’s Cha modifier + spell level.

Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon.

Favored Class: Sorcerer.

Sorry, Nail, but I have to agree with DrSpunj. For a sorcerer, this is an exceptionally powerful class, enough that I'd rate it +1 LA. For a sorcerer, it has +4 AC, +2 to the casting stat, and +1 on ranged touch attacks in daylight (+1 size, +1 Dex, -1 light sensitivity). It has almost no downside -- certainly more powerful than dwarves, in my mind.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Since there's an unfavorable ability modifier that says Kobolds have a -4 to their strength and a +2 to their dex, it seems so many of you are hell bent upon turning the Kobold into super-sorcerers. C'mon, how charismatic can a 3 foot high devil-dog looking thing be?

Dudes, why not just say -3 for strength and +3 for dex? Conversely, -4 for strength, +4 for dex. Is this really so cerebrally challenging?!

 

[Tuzenbach]

I love double posts, don't you?

 

[Videssian]

Since there's an unfavorable ability modifier that says Kobolds have a -4 to their strength and a +2 to their dex, it seems so many of you are hell bent upon turning the Kobold into super-sorcerers. C'mon, how charismatic can a 3 foot high devil-dog looking thing be?

Dudes, why not just say -3 for strength and +3 for dex? Conversely, -4 for strength, +4 for dex. Is this really so cerebrally challenging?!

True, this is aesthetically appealing.. a major stat goes down by the same amount that another major stat goes up.. though to make it less appealing for spellcasters, something like this could be done:
Str -4, Dex +4, Con -2, Cha +2
(that lack of Con will *really* hurt a wiz or sor.. enough that it counteracts much of the advantage of the high cha or dex.. though again, wiz/sor will not be in melee combat and that dex will help avoid missiles.. so it'd be a wash, which is kindof the intent)

 

[DrSpunj]

True, this is aesthetically appealing.. a major stat goes down by the same amount that another major stat goes up.. though to make it less appealing for spellcasters, something like this could be done:
Str -4, Dex +4, Con -2, Cha +2
(that lack of Con will *really* hurt a wiz or sor.. enough that it counteracts much of the advantage of the high cha or dex.. though again, wiz/sor will not be in melee combat and that dex will help avoid missiles.. so it'd be a wash, which is kindof the intent)

While the -2 Con might make it "less appealing for spellcasters", it's not enough to even out the +1 LA given Nail's most recent proposal. Look at Elves, Favored Class: Wizard. They don't even get a bonus to their primary spellcasting stat!

Furthermore, you've just pushed their AC up another +1 with the now increased Dex, so with Small, +2 Dex and +2 NA we're back at a base AC of 15 for the Sorcerer with a +2 to their primary spellcasting stat, who doesn't care diddly about the -4 Strength penalty.

The Con is a definite penalty that the Sorcerer will feel, though, and is part of the default MM Kobold. What about: -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha? The first two and last two balance according to the DMG guidelines. So what about this:

KOBOLD CHARACTERS
Kobold characters possess the following racial traits:

• –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Charisma.
• Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
• A kobold’s base land speed is 30'.
• Darkvision 60'.
• Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks.
• Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity.
• Natural Armor +1
• Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—mending, message. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + kobold’s Cha modifier + spell level.
• Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon.
• Favored Class: Sorcerer.
• Level Adjustment +0

By lowering the Strength penalty from -4 to -2, dropping the Con back to its original -2, and getting rid of the +2 Int, everything seems to work out for me. I still like the +2 to Bluff though. I think it fits very well with the cowardly craftiness that Nail's describing, YMMV.

As a gestalt, do Kobolds make good Sorcerers? Absolutely! This build still has a lot going for them, but by getting rid of the +2 Int we aren't forced to balance out those extra 23 skill points over 20 levels which is very tough to balance (and also, IMO, steals some of the Human's schtick).

I think this is the best one of the lot. It's not a great deal different than the MM Kobold, but has a lot of appeal for its Favored Class: Sorcerer.

Whaddya think?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Videssian]

While the -2 Con might make it "less appealing for spellcasters", it's not enough to even out the +1 LA given Nail's most recent proposal. Look at Elves, Favored Class: Wizard. They don't even get a bonus to their primary spellcasting stat!

Furthermore, you've just pushed their AC up another +1 with the now increased Dex, so with Small, +2 Dex and +2 NA we're back at a base AC of 15 for the Sorcerer with a +2 to their primary spellcasting stat, who doesn't care diddly about the -4 Strength penalty.

The Con is a definite penalty that the Sorcerer will feel, though, and is part of the default MM Kobold. What about: -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha? The first two and last two balance according to the DMG guidelines. So what about this:


By lowering the Strength penalty from -4 to -2, dropping the Con back to its original -2, and getting rid of the +2 Int, everything seems to work out for me. I still like the +2 to Bluff though. I think it fits very well with the cowardly craftiness that Nail's describing, YMMV.

As a gestalt, do Kobolds make good Sorcerers? Absolutely! This build still has a lot going for them, but by getting rid of the +2 Int we aren't forced to balance out those extra 23 skill points over 20 levels which is very tough to balance (and also, IMO, steals some of the Human's schtick).

I think this is the best one of the lot. It's not a great deal different than the MM Kobold, but has a lot of appeal for its Favored Class: Sorcerer.

Whaddya think?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

If there wasn't the light sensitivity (a significant issue), I could go with this. Since it is there, I think either increasing the range of the darkvision, or (better) increasing natural armor up to +2 would help balance this, since for fighters or rogues, that str-2 and con-2 is really going to hurt. The dex+2 helps (for a rogue anyway), but adding a nat.armor+2 with the light sensitivity to the mix seems to balance out alright to me.. I'm ambivalent about the bluff+2, since there's already a built-in +1 from the cha+2, for a total of bluff+3 for that sorc. We need to be careful not to adjust things too far in favor of that potential sorc kobold.

In other words, if we change Natural Armor to +2, I can live with this.. (+3 would be nicer, but that probably would be unbalanced, nice though it would be to have as a player.. )

ttyl,
Videssian

 

[DrSpunj]

...would help balance this, since for fighters or rogues, that str-2 and con-2 is really going to hurt.

Come on, Videssian. That's like me saying:

...would help balance this, since for [Half-orc] Wizards & Sorcerers, that -2 Int & -2 Cha is really going to hurt.

Both statements have as much relevancy in this discussion. None.

The Favored Class for a Half-Orc is Barbarian. WotC does not care that Half-orcs make poor Wizards or Sorcerers (or at least not enough to remove that ability imbalance described in the DMG).

The Favored Class for Kobolds is Sorcerer. Objectively, we shouldn't care that they make poor Fighters or Rogues.

Now, I know you have some vested interest in this, but we have to look at the racial abilities and penalties from the viewpoint of a Sorcerer!

You bring up the Light Sensitivity again. Let's break this down one more (last?) time with the Kobold abilities I proposed in my previous post.

Light Sensitivity (Ex): Kobolds are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

Dazzled: The creature is unable to see well because of overstimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks.

So there are three possible settings here for our Kobold Sorcerer: Bright sunlight, normal light, and darkness. I'll keep a running total of the number of Bonuses and Penalties.

Bright Sunlight:

1. Melee Attacks - With the -1 from Light Sensitivity coupled with the -2 Str, the Kobold Sorcerer has an effective -2 penalty here, but that is mitigated by the Small size modifier of +1 for a net total of -1. Furthermore, considering most spells delivered via a melee attack are touch attacks, this is a penalty, but not a significant one. Regardless, will keep track.
2. Ranged Attacks - The -1 from Light Sensitivity is negated entirely by the +1 from Dex and +1 from Small size, so even in the worst possible conditions the Kobold gets a net +1 bonus from his racial abilities.
3. Search Checks - Again, -1 from Light Sensitivity but with his racial bonus of +2 the net effect becomes a +1 bonus to Search checks in Bright sunshine.
4. Spot Checks - Nothing to mitigate the -1 here, so a definite (albeit minor) penalty.

So for Bright sunshine we end up with a net 2 bonuses and 2 penalties, or a wash. Next, normal light:

1. Melee Attacks - The -1 from Light Sensitivity no longer applies, so the -1 from the low Str is entirely cancelled by the Small size modifier. Neither a bonus or a penalty -> Neutral.
2. Ranged Attacks - The -1 from Light Sensitivity no longer applies so the Kobold enjoys a +1 from Dex and +1 from Small size for a net +2 bonus from his racial abilities.
3. Search Checks - No Light Sensitivity so this increases to a net +2 bonus.
4. Spot Checks - No Light Sensitivity so this also goes away. Neutral.

So for normal light we end up with a net 2 bonuses, no penalties, and 2 neutrals. Looking better. Finally, darkness:

1. Melee Attacks - The -1 from the low Str is entirely cancelled by the Small size modifier, but his Darkvision (at just 60') allows him to make attacks without concealment or miss chances that other races with normal vision or even low-light vision would have to deal with. A definite bonus.
2. Ranged Attacks - Still a net +2 from the Dex & Small size modifiers, and can see opponents up to 60'. Another bonus.
3. Search Checks - Still a net +2 bonus since Darkvision allows normal vision and therefore doesn't interfere with Search checks.
4. Spot Checks - No mechanical bonuses or penalties, but with Darkvision he again can make normal Spot checks in the dark. Very useful ability for adventurers who often find themselves where they probably shouldn't be. Bonus!

So that's bonuses in every category this time around. So the final tally for Light Sensitivity?

• Penalties: 2
• Neutrals: 2
• Bonuses: 8 ->

So explain your reasoning behind this being "a significant issue"? I'm not seeing how the Kobold Sorcerer is really affected by Light Sensitivity except by melee attacks (come on, he's a Sorcerer!) and a -1 to Spot in "bright sunshine and Daylight spells". What he gets in eight other categories more than seems to compensate him with respect to this racial trait.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Videssian]

Heh,

I see your point.. *nods*.. ok, I can go with that.. *nods*

I'll stat up Kefk as a Fighter 5 and see what I come up with for tonight.. I have some ideas.. *rubs hands*

ttyl,
Videssian