D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Micah Sweet]

It's true there is no baked in default setting, but basically all the settings are fantasy ones. Weird (by Earth standards) stuff happens like all the time in most all of them.

It's bizarre to me that there is a mindset that looks at the weird stuff going on in a fantasy setting, and goes "yeah, but if your character holds a sword, they shouldn't get to do anything like that....unless they say the magic wooorrrrdddss"

Perhaps they should stop characterizing the weird stuff as magical then.

 

[Emberashh]

To be fair, the last time WotC tried hard to "pick a lane", as you say, they produced 4e, which wasn't as successful as they wanted then. They want more now.

True but thats why conviction matters, though that also comes down to not being flippant about the preferences of the audience either. Theres a balance to be had and WOTC is too far away from the conviction side of things.

Im reminded of an anecdote, that Im positive I read somewhere on this site, where WOTC was promoting 5e's debut on a streaming show and all the WOTC people were apparently incredulous when the anecdotetee expressed that they actually liked 4e.

That isn't the reaction of people who actually believe in their own ideas, because no matter how bad the game may or may not have done you shouldn't be looking at the thing you made like you're ashamed of it. And thats without getting into how well 4e actually did, which to my understanding was not actually proportionate to the amount of negativity around it.

The default setting is whatever the DM wants.

The DM isn't the one that frames all the meat and potatoes of the game; they're not the first line of description of the various parts of the game; they're almost always secondary unless the player never read any of the books before sitting down with a DM to hash out a character.

But even then, its still the books that define more of the setting (and thus mindset of the players). A DM would have to reflavor basically the entire game cover to cover to avoid that.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Perhaps they should stop characterizing the weird stuff as magical then.

At the very least I think it'd be nice if magic didn't have a monopoly on weird.

It doesn't in genre fiction.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

In my games lore, all sapient beings are one of either self-reincarnated warrioes of Odin, the created children of a blind god, or the hundred times over experiment of child gods abandoned to their own devices.

The baseline for being mundane in this context is quite high, and mechanically this is all unified by a skill system that emphasizes that while capabilities are high, nothing is guaranteed reliable, including and especially magic.

that might be every action and horror movie universe too

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

At the very least I think it'd be nice if magic didn't have a monopoly on weird.

It doesn't in genre fiction.

It's somewhat worse than this in D&D right now. Not only is it magic but most of the time it's spellcasting.

If you are ok with fantantic stuff existing outside of spellcasting you open up a lot of possibilities.

 

[Cruentus]

Im reminded of an anecdote, that Im positive I read somewhere on this site, where WOTC was promoting 5e's debut on a streaming show and all the WOTC people were apparently incredulous when the anecdotetee expressed that they actually liked 4e.

That isn't the reaction of people who actually believe in their own ideas, because no matter how bad the game may or may not have done you shouldn't be looking at the thing you made like you're ashamed of it. And thats without getting into how well 4e actually did, which to my understanding was not actually proportionate to the amount of negativity around it.

I thought that what people were noticing about 5e was that a lot of the underlying "engine" of it was "re-branded" 4e concepts. So while it hasn't leaned right back into the 4e lane, it is certainly leaning (or has leaned) into that direction, while still making classes 'different enough' that it doesn't have the samey label. Now, in my opinion, it has evolved into "samey" in the end result, especially around species. I think Next will further solidify that.

I also don't really get why everything that someone does has to be considered "magical." Its already a fantasy game. By making everything magical, its becomes the default expectation for anything except the most basic stuff (stuff martials do). If more things were just 'natural', even high power things, then high powered martial stuff would also be considered 'natural'.

 

[Gammadoodler]

It's somewhat worse than this in D&D right now. Not only is it magic but most of the time it's spellcasting.

If you are ok with fantantic stuff existing outside of spellcasting you open up a lot of possibilities.

Tbf. It's even worse than that since some pretty nonmagical stuff is also gated behind spellcasting (looking at you hunter's mark)

 

[Hussar]

But is that the best solution? Or just the easiest?

For once I agree with you. Dunno about “easiest” but 5e definitely went the way of just making everyone a caster.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I also don't really get why everything that someone does has to be considered "magical." Its already a fantasy game. By making everything magical, its becomes the default expectation for anything except the most basic stuff (stuff martials do). If more things were just 'natural', even high power things, then high powered martial stuff would also be considered 'natural'.

Agreed.

I do also think there is a place for the mostly (purely?) earth mundane martial that gets their power through items or narrative fate but even that should be baked into the class.

But also add the non spellcasting mythical martial whose power source is being in a fantasy world where some people can surpass earthly martialness through intrinsic "magic" that is distictly not spellcasting. You can tie it to a specific power source if you want (son of god, etc.) but you don't have to. You can leave it mysterious.

 

[Hussar]

.

If WOTC (and Hasbro) had any conviction to stand by their own ideas rather than the heavily divided whims of the community, then they could pick a lane, deal with the loss of whose who don't like it, and still have a successful franchise that will only get stronger when the resultant games are all the better for it.

WotC tried that once and got crucified for it and nearly ceased to exist. Don’t think they’ll ever do that again.