D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

Yeesh.

 

[Hussar]

And you need to chill out with the hysterics. It might be touchy to say this, but touch grass my dude. Yeesh.

We're 72 pages in. From an initial post that stipulated that the problem exists, and we're STILL at the point where you and others dispute every single example that the problem might lie within the fighter class. Hysterics? Seriously? The level of Sea Lioning going on here is breathtaking. You've dug in on every single example. No matter what, the problem must never lie within the class itself.

good grief.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

See, you're not allowed to do that according to @TheSword . Any changes MUST BE additive. You are NOT ALLOWED to change base classes. By wolfie. No biscuit for you!

I mean…the fighter has little fat to trim, fair enough.

So add to it…in the base class?

 

[Emberashh]

No matter what, the problem must never lie within the class itself.

Please quote where I said "except".

Better yet, explain to us all where, precisely, you are deriving the word "except" from the phrase "all of these things".

Still waiting, my good chum.

Edit: suppose I won't be getting that answer after all.

 

[Hussar]

I mean…the fighter has little fat to trim, fair enough.

So add to it…in the base class?

No, no no. You MUST NEVER change the base class. You are not allowed. You must only make "additive" changes. Which means you cannot touch the base class. The base class is a work of perfection that everyone should feel blessed to play. It's absolutely fun for everyone and any evidence to the contrary must be ignored.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No, no no. You MUST NEVER change the base class. You are not allowed. You must only make "additive" changes. Which means you cannot touch the base class. The base class is a work of perfection that everyone should feel blessed to play. It's absolutely fun for everyone and any evidence to the contrary must be ignored.

Le sigh

I imagine you could predict my response to that much snarky hyperbole?

Anyway, additive variant class features are already a thing in 5e, and I don’t think anyone head the position that you’re hyperbolizing here.

 

[Yaarel]

Level X of Character Class Y is equivalent to Level X of Character Class Z.

Yes.

This also includes:

Slot X of Spell Y is equivalent to slot X of Spell Z.

Rigorously evaluate and balance the spell effects for each spell slot.

Then it will be possible to get a handle of how to balance all feature effects at high tiers.

Then it will be possible to grant the Fighter class noncombat features that compare to spell effects at the appropriate level.

 

[TheSword]

IOW, no, we can't have what we want. Because anything we try to do will be automatically blocked by those who insist that the problem doesn't exist.

These are systemic problems that are grounded right at the root of the game. The disparity starts relatively small in Tier 1 and then gets wider and wider as time goes on. There's an absolute refusal to recognize any actual problems so, any solutions are band-aids at best. To actually solve the problem, we need a system where Level X of Character Class Y is equivalent to Level X of Character Class Z.

Without that parity, we can't solve anything. And, we aren't allowed to solve anything because there is enough people who will automatically gainsay any attempt at a fix by claiming that the problem doesn't exist or that the problem lies ANYWHERE but with the class power structures. It's bad DM's, it's bad encounter design, it's bad monster design, it's bad players. On and on and on. Anything but actually a problem with the non-caster classes.

It really is a shame.

I think you’re ignoring the wide and sweeping changes to magic that 5e brought in…

• Removed leveled scaling
• Added concentration
• limited high level slots to 1 per level
• Removed metamagic for all but sorcerers and toned it down
• Limited spells to cantrips if a bonus action spell is cast
• Removed pre-buffing
• Gave most save or suck spells an ongoing save
• Seriously nerfed summoned creatures

I support these changes and think they have improved the game. I wouldn’t do that if I didn’t think taking casters down a peg or two was a good thing.

You think it didn’t go far enough, I thought it was spot on. It’s all just a matter of taste.

You can have a fighter that can cross the planes by cutting holes in space with a sword. Just make it a separate class. There is no reason your fun needs to negate mine.

 

[Eubani]

The problem with only allowing additive is that the Fighter was designed to cover all warrior type martial archetypes so they have refused to do further, once again only casters are allowed more. Due to this I would be happy for demands of additive and everydayman only to be thoroughly disrespected.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Codex of Alara maybe? (Jim Butcher)

Codex Alera is very zero-to-DBZ, so definitely fitting for DnD conversations. A world where everyone is a caster!