D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[HammerMan]

I am very much not a fan of refluffing. To me (and I expect to some others) it makes the narrative meaningless.

No body is asking you too. In fact the very thing you say you don’t like is currently the only option for us to have a complex powerful versatile martial character.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Even the less-defined current narrative for the sorcerer explicitly allows for supernatural or magical abilities. The current narrative for fighter and rogue does not.

The current narrative for the fighter and rogue can allow for it. We also have added things that would explicitly allow for it. They are just less-defined. Something you keep trying to claim means they cannot work, despite the less-defined sorcerer absolutely working.

Where does the phantom rogue appear? Is there anything in its description that allows for supernatural abilities? Because if there is, it's not the same thing.

Tashas.

And while I bet I know what you are going to latch onto, I'm going to give you this first.

"How did you discover this grim power? Did you sleep in a graveyard and awaken to your new abilities? Or did you cultivate them in a temple or thieves’ guild dedicated to a deity of death?"

One of the official origins of their powers is sleeping in a graveyard. That's it. Fall asleep in a graveyard. How many fighters sleep on battlefields? How many fighters sleep near sites of violence and bloodshed. If all it takes for magic soul-stealing powers is to sleep in a graveyard, then how hard is this really?

But, here's the full description

"Many rogues walk a fine line between life and death, risking their own lives and taking the lives of others. While adventuring on that line, some rogues discover a mystical connection to death itself. These rogues take knowledge from the dead and become immersed in negative energy, eventually becoming like ghosts. Thieves’ guilds value them as highly effective information gatherers and spies."

And you are going to say "AHA! A MYSTICAL connection, that's the difference, that's what you need in the rogue or the fighter to allow this!"

But, again, just sleeping in a graveyard is enough to forge this connection. The fine line between life and death, risking their lives and taking the lives of others... that's literally the same thing referenced with the fighter's "And they are well acquainted with death, both meting it out and staring it defiantly in the face." But you are demanding the word mystical, or eldritch, or magical, or some other single word. The fighter can't be "well acquainted" they have to be "mystically connected" and then you will be satisfied. Even though, frankly, death being a mystical force, being "well acquainted" with that mystical force would be the exact same thing.

Again. It isn't that this stuff doesn't exist. You just don't like the way it exists, and therefore are demanding it be changed.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That depends on how you interpret things since Unparalleled is a statement of exceptionalism in a world where amazing things happen. Its like the statement “Hulk is strongest there is”, its a narrative permission to give him more strength feats than anyone else.
Equally in DnD Death is a force with its own domains, gods and effects. In some cases even its own plane of existence. A Fighter being able to shrug off death effects

- so straight off I can think Fighters get immunity to Death effects like
Circle of Death, Death Knell, Power Word, Kill, Slay Living, Wail of the Banshee etc.

You can make it mean what you want, certainly, but I doubt that's going to satisfy people who are against the idea of the mythic martial, so why not put some effort into the narrative? It is a roleplaying game after all.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And again. We can do that. We just don’t want that something to be spells.

You hit it on the head. We want different mechanics than what exist now.

I have never suggested spells. I am just saying if you want supernatural effects, you should have a supernatural explanation. Just like all the other classes that feature supernatural effects.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No body is asking you too. In fact the very thing you say you don’t like is currently the only option for us to have a complex powerful versatile martial character.

How so? Are you talking about WotC again?

 

[HammerMan]

You can make it mean what you want, certainly, but I doubt that's going to satisfy people who are against the idea of the mythic martial, so why not put some effort into the narrative? It is a roleplaying game after all.

Nothing will satisfy the people who don’t want mythic martial becuse they don’t want it.

 

[HammerMan]

I have never suggested spells. I am just saying if you want supernatural effects, you should have a supernatural explanation. Just like all the other classes that feature supernatural effects.

No. You don’t want the magicless classes to be as fun and complex as magic ones so nothing will satisfy that.

 

[HammerMan]

How so? Are you talking about WotC again?

Yes this whole discussion is about how we want WoTC to remove magical dependency and give either a fixed fighter or new class that is not stopping others from playing fighters.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The current narrative for the fighter and rogue can allow for it. We also have added things that would explicitly allow for it. They are just less-defined. Something you keep trying to claim means they cannot work, despite the less-defined sorcerer absolutely working.



Tashas.

And while I bet I know what you are going to latch onto, I'm going to give you this first.

"How did you discover this grim power? Did you sleep in a graveyard and awaken to your new abilities? Or did you cultivate them in a temple or thieves’ guild dedicated to a deity of death?"

One of the official origins of their powers is sleeping in a graveyard. That's it. Fall asleep in a graveyard. How many fighters sleep on battlefields? How many fighters sleep near sites of violence and bloodshed. If all it takes for magic soul-stealing powers is to sleep in a graveyard, then how hard is this really?

But, here's the full description

"Many rogues walk a fine line between life and death, risking their own lives and taking the lives of others. While adventuring on that line, some rogues discover a mystical connection to death itself. These rogues take knowledge from the dead and become immersed in negative energy, eventually becoming like ghosts. Thieves’ guilds value them as highly effective information gatherers and spies."

And you are going to say "AHA! A MYSTICAL connection, that's the difference, that's what you need in the rogue or the fighter to allow this!"

But, again, just sleeping in a graveyard is enough to forge this connection. The fine line between life and death, risking their lives and taking the lives of others... that's literally the same thing referenced with the fighter's "And they are well acquainted with death, both meting it out and staring it defiantly in the face." But you are demanding the word mystical, or eldritch, or magical, or some other single word. The fighter can't be "well acquainted" they have to be "mystically connected" and then you will be satisfied. Even though, frankly, death being a mystical force, being "well acquainted" with that mystical force would be the exact same thing.

Again. It isn't that this stuff doesn't exist. You just don't like the way it exists, and therefore are demanding it be changed.

You're right. I am going to focus on the phrase, "mystical connection", because that's the thing that makes that description work the best. It allows stuff like sleeping in a graveyard to have supernatural meaning, which is all I am asking for. You already agreed to this, which is why I'm unsure why your discourse seems so aggressive.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But it needs to be tied to something, and having the mechanics not be informed by the narrative, doing it later as you say, runs the very real risk that you just want this class to exist because you want different mechanics than what are currently available, not that the class actually covers a narrative desire in this roleplaying game. That's not the case, correct?

The mechanical desire and the narrative desire are fundamentally linked, just not the way you keep insisting.

We don't need to say "Ah, fighter's are all descended from giants, therefore all their abilities involve getting bigger and throwing rocks!"

The narrative desire is "beyond human limits". Does that mean soul magic? Maybe. Does that mean life force manipulation? Maybe. Does that mean catching your body on fire with the burning passion of youth? Maybe. It doesn't have to be explicitly one power source so you can narrow down what abilities are or are not allowed. Because we aren't looking for "we want our fighter's to have the ability to summon spiritual constructs" we are looking for "we want something for all fighters, psy warriors, rune knights, eldritch knights, battle masters, bannerets, Cavaliers, Samurai, to reach beyond human limits within the base class" It is a vague desire, so the vague power sources WORK.