D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

My personal preference would be for battlemaster maneuvers and superiority dice to be folded back into the base fighter, with dice fueling abilities. I'd also make superiority dice exploding dice.

I'd strongly suggest leaving the Fighter alone and creating a new mythic martial class. Of course you could start with a battlemaster like base for the new class.

Personally, I think it's easier to start with the Warlock or Wizard or Sorcerer and then add on the martial stuff.

It's much easy to see some of trade offs this way and not "overvalue" the basic martial stuff.

Hmm, let's add heavy armor and all weapons. How many X level spells is that worth? Definitely not 9th level spells right? Etc.

I think it gets you to a better place. Then you have X amount of spell slots left after the basic martial stuff to trade for mythic abilities. Which shouldn't be just spells but can you you a better idea of power and versatility ceiling (no surprise it's high).

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I think the degree of supernatural varies from poster to poster.

It does, but I would suggest this mythic martial class be for those that are ok with extreme supernatural. We've already established that the narrative allows for anything.

You could try to put in some purely physical abilities at each level for those that don't want external effects though. I could see that.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think the degree of supernatural varies from poster to poster.

if it was fighters using supernatural powers that people had wanted i don't think people would've argued aginst you for so long on having our mundane 'power source' of just using training and skill.

there are more than enough existing fighter subclasses who use supernatural means and other supernatural warriors if that's what people actually wanted but it's the ones who don't use magic (and assorted 'not-magics' ki and psionics) who lack and lag behind mechanically that people complain about not being up to par.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Presumably a mythic warrior's abilities would focus on being a warrior rather than being a monster or a gish.

You don't need to fly when you can jump 30' into the air, grab the griffon by the face, shove a sword into its wing, send it careening into the ground, and pin it to earth like a butterfly in a display.

Yeah, I think this is the key for me. It's a mythic martial/warrior so the "martial/warrior" part has to be emphasized somehow. Doesn't mean it couldn't have some kind of ability to sheath its weapon on fire or create a telekinetic shield or whatever but it's main thing should still be physical -- strength, skill, or agility.

To me, I guess that means

1) should be hitting things with body, weapons, objects a bunch

2) a lot of their high level supernatural stuff should be physical -- extreme jumping, sonic hand claps, breaking barriers, moving fast, extreme agility, extreme skill to hit a weak point, extreme endurance and ability to shrug off conditions

3) room for other stuff that "comes from within" like intimation to death/stun, leadership, battle acumen, class magic items, emotional heartiness

4) should not cast traditional spells

5) I'm a little hesitant for things like overt teleporting, flying, etc. As these seem less martially but could work if the classes main thing is still physical stuff. Like a super human swordsman with a amulet of teleportation. Or even a zen ritual of teleportation so it's not item oriented. Or sprouts wings from its subclass, etc. Nothing really should be off the table but have to retain the martiallyness

edit: 6) for me should avoid just bigger numbers, more damage, more attacks, etc.

7) not so important but would be nice if there were cool lower level options say 1-7 that were NOT overtly supernatural so that someone could play the "abilities manifest later" thing if they want to. Options only not everything.

 

[Chaosmancer]

When I did my combat arts (which I'll link the list of abilities, but the mechanics are in the other thread) I started lower impact and then went up

Combat Arts

No description.

homebrewery.naturalcrit.com

I had eleven 1st level Arts including the ability to make extra attacks if you hit, pushing an enemy 10 ft, disarming an enemy (which does not work on shields), giving an enemy disadvantage on a single attack, lunging forward an extra 5ft, reducing an enemies speed, granting advantage on an allies attack, knocking them prone, using a chain/whip to grapple and a marking mechanic.

Most of these arts increased in strength at level 5 or 9. Disarm allowed you to catch the item you knocked out of their hands, disadvantage increased to every attack made by the enemy on their next turn, the lunge becomes 5ft extra reach and 10ft of extra movement, the advantage on an attack becomes disadvantage on a save, the push got a lot further (5 x mod)

The most powerful increase happened to the prone, at level 13 it also imposes the dazed condition, which is brutal.

5th level arts also had eleven total. These include blinding a nearby opponent, reducing falling damage as a reaction, using your reaction to intercept an attack made against an ally, attacking an enemy that enters your reach, goading an enemy into attacking you (this can force them to move, but they don't trigger AoO's if they do, for balance), imposing the dazed condition, attacking someone who missed you, increasing AC against AoO's, allowing an ally to disengage and move half speed, reduce damage you take from a hit, and imposing the frightened condition.

Most of these arts improved at levels 9 or 13. More damage reduction from falling, increasing the range of the switch with an ally, allowing an ally to disengage and use their full speed, blinding every chosen enemy adjacent to you, then there are a few notable ones.

The fear effect at level 9 allows you to target anyone within 30 ft, instead of the person you hit. Then at level 13 you can choose to frighten someone and everyone adjacent to them.

The goad and the Daze both end up lasting for repeated rounds, fading with a successful save.

And probably the most powerful, at level 17 the attacking an enemy that enters your range no longer takes a reaction if you successfully pull it off.

Level 9 only had four new abilities. A crippling attack that reduces the targets speed by half, and gives disadvantage to dex saves, the ability to break weapons and shields (but not armor), the ability to give yourself and your allies +2 AC, and the ability to turn any attack you make into a minor AOE hitting adjacent targets of your choice.

Level 13 got six new abilities, and this is where I started going more supernatural. The ability to use a chain and restrain any number of targets within a 20ft cube, the ability to drop an enemy to zero hp if your attack roll exceeds their current hp, an attack that hits the ground instead of a target, knocking everyone within 10 ft prone and creating difficult terrain. The ability to volley arrows into a small AOE, a teleport slash that moves them 20 ft an attacks anyone within 5ft of the line they moved along as an attack, and then a reaction which allows you to either reduce the attack roll of ANY ranged attack, or increase the save versus a line spell. If you force the attack to miss, or succeed on the save, you redirect the attack or spell effect to another creature within range. The creature gets advantage on the saving throw if it was a line.

And for level 17 arts.... I ran out of ideas

 

[AmandaBarbarian]

I'd love to see the list, personally.

I asked him to email me it if he still has it but he is at work now and I work tonight

How often did the die increase or decrease?

at d4 it is super swingy as it goes up the amount of variance goes down. We would go whole sessions with 2 of us holding onto d8s

Did it feel fairly stable?

no my complaint was how random it felt

And how often did someone get bad luck and drop out of the system entirely in an early combat?

not often, but the few times it happened stick in my mind. When I play a warlock I know I spent my load and need that short rest, but I got the spell when I needed it... in this it could be an unlucky roll or two and I need one.

 

[HammerMan]

I had a DM that had a real cool house rule you might want to try.
Every round the fighter (well his rewrite of it) got a d6 to roll to add to either a str dex or con save, or attack or skill check. If you roll a 1 you lower your die to a d4, then if you get a 1 again it goes down to a d3 then goes away. if you roll max you increase the die code to a max of d10. When you take a short rest you can expend a HD to reset your die to d6. When you take a long rest you auto reset it.

Then he had not only the battle master maneuvers but these cool supernatural ones that allowed you to flank with yourself, or get past resistance or even immunity and ones that allowed you to attack twice. However some required you to have the die code to a height and other required you to automatically lower the die code.

Some he called stances and had cool add on that lasted with concentration, but some just were fire and forget. I have to see if I have his list, it started with 1st level ones and went all the way to 9th level following the spell chart for full casters.

Some I remember had a lower the die code 2 steps to move to a spot in 30ft as a bonus action with no terrain or attacks blocking it. one where you just delt that code of fire damage as you lit your sword on fire, and my personal favorite was you needed a full d10 but you lower it 3 die codes (so back to your d4) but you gain 1d4+1 actions you can take while enemies could not react.

Do you remember the words Iron Heart Surge and/or thinker of blades? If so I may know what he did.

 

[James Gasik]

So on the concept of the "value" of heavy armor- I don't think it's as big a factor as some might think. Consider first, that any class that doesn't have access to heavy armor has at least some reason to invest in Dexterity.

You could built a pure melee Ranger, of course, but they do have a few skills and features that suggest you might want to invest in Dexterity. Indeed, if you are a pure archer, switch hitter, or stealth enthusiast, you can do without Strength entirely, due to the current game's design.

Some classes are built to reward you more and more for an investment in Dexterity; on a long enough timeline, the Barbarian gets more out of raising Dexterity than they would out of investing in armor.

Even a caster class can find value in having a decent initiative bonus.

But even if you invest in the Strength required to wear heavy armor, you've shouldered the financial burden, and are perfectly fine with the penalty to Stealth, the end result is, by endgame, you have an AC 1 higher than most characters. A Mage Armor using caster can gain the same benefit for the trivial use of a 1st-level spell slot. A Monk or Barbarian can even exceed the benefit granted by heavy armor.

This puts heavy armor in a strange place where it's most valuable at low levels, where you can't afford the best heavy armors, pulls ahead at medium levels, but at high levels has a small benefit (with a hindrance attached) or can even be left behind.

Now granted, there is the issue of "what if we're using point buy? Points saved on Dexterity can be spent elsewhere" or "what about ASI's? ASI's not spent on off stats can be used to gain feats!".

But it's worth noting that, regardless of what most tables do, point buy and Feats are actually options- options that the game's design supposedly doesn't even take into account (according to WotC themselves). And further, we see that when options like Multiclassing and Feats are on the table, it's not especially hard to acquire heavy armor if you do want it.

Even worse, racial options exist like the Tortle, who gain a natural AC of 17, almost as good as the best armor in the game, which, with the downfall of racial ability scores, means high AC is within anyone's reach, if they're ok with being a turtle man!

My takeaway here is twofold; if you are "budgeting" heavy armor for a new class, it's not actually worth very much, when compared to, say 1e/2e, as it currently exists.

Which, to me, means that if heavy armor is seriously meant to be a major draw for the classes intended to use it, it needs to be better than it currently is.

 

[Chaosmancer]

5) I'm a little hesitant for things like overt teleporting, flying, etc. As these seem less martially but could work if the classes main thing is still physical stuff. Like a super human swordsman with a amulet of teleportation. Or even a zen ritual of teleportation so it's not item oriented. Or sprouts wings from its subclass, etc. Nothing really should be off the table but have to retain the martiallyness

I think teleportation is useful mechanically, even if we don't want the BAMF! flavor. For example, I could see something like this scene


The enemy goes to draw his sword (Main character is the orange haired kid) and then... the attack is over and he's been cut. That scene happens a lot, where the superior swordsman has already finished attacking before their opponent realizes it. Teleportation is a great mechanic for that.

 

[Remathilis]

how supernatural is your intent to make the mythic fighter? my understanding of the design intent was to basically make them 'superhuman' as in, regular human capabilities scaled up to the point they become fantastic, the 'fighter 2.0',

cleave the earth with your weapon, jump into the skies, lift and throw boulders sorta things rather than flight, firebreathing or psychic powers.

This is where subclasses factor in.

Titan-born (a basic you have supernatural strength type sub) is going to have lower-wahoo powers: high jumps, boulder throwing, shattering swords with their pecks, etc.
Dragon knight (a far more fantastical warrior akin to a martial dragon sorcerer) is going to have wings, fear auras, and breath weapons.
Psi-warrior is going to have your basic Jedi powers (high jumps, speed) plus some telekinesis.
Crusader (a leader-like character devoted to a cause) is getting some warlordy powers and auras like a paladin/3.5 marshall.

The basic fighter without subclass is what you said; normal human stuff scaled up. Subs would be the design space to get gonzo.