D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

Not every encounter can be a grand engagement.

I would argue not everything needs to be an explicit encounter.

But its also the fact that its a little strange to still be inundating a party of level 20s with useless tedium encounters.

PCs at that level are meant to be multiversal heroes. Sure, not every adventure for them needs to be an endless string of epic grand battles, but at the same time you should be reconsidering what you're counting as a normal encounter; fighting a handful of mooks or trudging through the same mundane forests you had them do at level 3 is a waste of session time at this level.

They don't have to be all grand battles of mass warfare to still work towards keeping the players sufficiently occupied; mass warfare is just the easiest way to hit the marks. Solo skill challenges in tandem with group challenges are the next best bet, and then you have your standard puzzles, heists, social encounters, etc that can all be scaled up and configured to keep the group occupied.

 

[Stalker0]

But its also the fact that its a little strange to still be inundating a party of level 20s with useless tedium encounters.

I do think this is one of the flaws of high level games that still use the same rules for low levels.

The idea of the 6-8 encounter adventuring day to me makes even less sense at high levels. What kind of world can consistently toss out 8 encounters worth of things that can actually challenge a 20th level party?

To me the game should recognize at that levels most encounters should just be throw-aways, they don't even use initiative, its just a chance for the party to describe how they trash the encounters with no difficulty to show off their awesome. And then the game should focus on the real encounter (which is already likely to be much longer than the equivalent at low levels, just due to the nature of high level complexity).

In summary, high levels should be the occasional boss battle, with everything in between just fun roleplaying and description of how the party curb stomps the other foes.


Its one thing I dearly miss about 4e. 4e recognized that the game fundamentally shifted at certain level ranges. It not only adjusted the classes for that (for example giving martials more "supernatural" abilities at higher levels, but letting the player choose the flavor of how they got it (called paragon paths and epic destinies). But also in the DMs guide really highlighting how the design of campaigns and adventures needs to shift at these tiers. I wish that design element had been kept in 5e.

 

[Incenjucar]

I would argue not everything needs to be an explicit encounter.

But its also the fact that its a little strange to still be inundating a party of level 20s with useless tedium encounters.

PCs at that level are meant to be multiversal heroes. Sure, not every adventure for them needs to be an endless string of epic grand battles, but at the same time you should be reconsidering what you're counting as a normal encounter; fighting a handful of mooks or trudging through the same mundane forests you had them do at level 3 is a waste of session time at this level.

They don't have to be all grand battles of mass warfare to still work towards keeping the players sufficiently occupied; mass warfare is just the easiest way to hit the marks. Solo skill challenges in tandem with group challenges are the next best bet, and then you have your standard puzzles, heists, social encounters, etc that can all be scaled up and configured to keep the group occupied.

Whether or not something is worthy to be encounter should not be dictated by whether or not there is a wizard.

 

[Emberashh]

What kind of world can consistently toss out 8 encounters worth of things that can actually challenge a 20th level party?

The Island of Pain in the Swamps of Doom surrounding the Tower of Blood

Thats actually part of the intent with the PHB Ranger that I think got lost because they never did anything with high level play. Its abilities start to become really valuable when you're traversing places that'd be instantaneous death for anyone lesser, and thats the sort of stuff you're meant to be going after at this level.

If you're traversing dimensions to cross into the various realms of Demons, Mad God's and Power hungry Mages, then of course you're going to end up facing a lot of rigmarole, because you're in these inhospitable places beyond the shadows of shadows. Itd actually be scarier if you weren't running into things all the time.

 

[Emberashh]

Whether or not something is worthy to be encounter should not be dictated by whether or not there is a wizard.

No one said that.

 

[Stalker0]

If you're traversing dimensions to cross into the various realms of Demons, Mad God's and Power hungry Mages, then of course you're going to end up facing a lot of rigmarole, because you're in these inhospitable places beyond the shadows of shadows. Itd actually be scarier if you weren't running into things all the time.

I actually think a neat concept would be that past level....10 lets say, you no longer get XP for regular encounters. You have to go to other planar places to keep advancing.

Again its the notion that a mortal realm just doesn't have threats that big and crazy, but in the planes oh yeah all sorts of crazy stuff happens.

Will never happen I know, but it would again give a good differentiation with those tiers.

 

[Emberashh]

I actually think a neat concept would be that past level....10 lets say, you no longer get XP for regular encounters. You have to go to other planar places to keep advancing.

Again its the notion that a mortal realm just doesn't have threats that big and crazy, but in the planes oh yeah all sorts of crazy stuff happens.

Will never happen I know, but it would again give a good differentiation with those tiers.

Id agree with that. Especially good idea for what 5e was trying to be as it helps to reinforce that thats where your campaigns should be heading if you stick with them that long.

Though really the elephant in high level play is that it takes too long to get there and the game basically ends as soon as you do. (It doesn't have to, but nearly invariably everyone restarts not long after hitting 20)

That I think they're attempting to address by integrating epic boons more, but I think just supporting DMs with high level adventure examples is going to be the biggest boon; show DMs how to start at level 20 and run a whole campaign at that level and have it be satisfying even if the players don't have much character progression to chew on like they would normally.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Ive talked about this example before, but one of my favorite encounter designs is the siege of a mountaintop city by an army of hundreds (1000s) of Orcs, a cabal of 9 Arch Mages, and an Ancient Red Dragon.

okay, hold on, what the hell? that sounds friggin' awesome. like i don't even just mean as an encounter, i mean as a climax in general. a cabal of archmages controlling a dragon and leading an army of orcs to destroy a city? that's the kind of climax epics aspire to have.

I actually think a neat concept would be that past level....10 lets say, you no longer get XP for regular encounters. You have to go to other planar places to keep advancing.

eh...i don't really care for this idea. it inherently limits the sorts of stories you can tell (ZEITGEIST and Burning Sky, as examples by enpublishing, become flat out impossible). there definitely does need to be more guidance around what the different tiers are supposed to be doing, though, i agree there.

 

[Emberashh]

okay, hold on, what the hell? that sounds friggin' awesome. like i don't even just mean as an encounter, i mean as a climax in general. a cabal of archmages controlling a dragon and leading an army of orcs to destroy a city? that's the kind of climax epics aspire to have.

Well it was the dragon controlling the mages, but yeah, fun times

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Well it was the dragon controlling the mages, but yeah, fun times

eh, either works.