D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

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HammerMan

Legend
One. Subclass
Okay 4 core classes. How many sun classes for each?

Edit: I find 9 fighter 13 wizard 9 for rogue and cleric 14
So if the 4 core class it is 16 non caster (remeber 1 rogue and 1 fighter become casters) 29 caster… it’s not 2 to 1 but close
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
lots of things are just questions of degrees are important.

I think most people would feel a 7th level slot to maybe blind 3 characters for 1 round with a save every round would be mediocre at best.


If a wizard has given up a 7th slot to do this what would you have a fighter give up to achieve the same effect?

Fighters don't have many base resources in most editions. If fighter had more, HP could be an option.

That essentially is the core problems

  1. The desire for simple martials by D&D designers
  2. The lack of higher tier martials in pre-mid1980s fantasy literature as inspirations
  3. The unwillingness to use post-mid1980s fantasy literature as inspiration for martials
 

No, it is not a weird question. The fact that you see it as strange tells me how little you actually understand the issue.

Martials have an explicit rule defining how many attacks they get in a turn.

Unless you're saying you're confused by how Extra Attack works, it is in fact a weird question to ask, unless of course you're going out of your way to try and say no to the 11th level Fighter when they want to Pocker Sand the three goblins they stab.

Like you just said though, improvised action won't allow me to do that

It will.

There is absolutely no "improvised action" which would allow me to restrain multiple targets.

If your character has a rope or a really strong kneecap-breaking stick I beg to differ.

You wouldn't allow my character to improvise an attack that any equivalent level caster could do.

Did I ever say this or are you just assuming what I think in lieu of, idk, asking me?

And yes, I would allow it. See the rope and/or kneecap stick comment.

draws the line at limiting effects to the number of attacks you have - thus a fighter can never, ever blind as many targets as a wizard could, no matter what he does.

The Fighter doesn't have to rely on a saving throw. 😉

Almost like I explicitly said "no saving throw" for a reason.

You don't mind the blinding effect, but, a fighter can't "jump a building" which a 1st level caster can do.

Acrobatics. Ropes. Grappling hook. Etc.

Its more than a little strange that you keep trying to skip over having an actual conversation with me to make some pretty big assumptions about what Id say or do.

Like, even if you're that hesitant to just talk to me, Im on record in this topic homebrewing DCC's Mighty Deed to completely remove the GMs input on whether or not a player gets to do their Deed. That alone disproves the assumptions you're making about what I would and wouldn't allow.

i get your point that it is technically a rule but it's like the barest shadow of an outline of a rule, 'maybe your GM will ask for a skill check to see if you're successful at your action', that's nothing, it provides no player leverage to do anything worth anything with any degree of reliability or even the security that you'll be allowed to be able to attempt it in the first place, and even if you do suceed your effects most likely won't be powerful or long-lasting.

Hence, again, why Ive stated multiple times in this topic that it can be better integrated and provided two examples of how it can be done.

I think most people would feel a 7th level slot to maybe blind 3 characters for 1 round with a save every round would be mediocre at best

Indeed which is reasonably balanced against a flat 1d6 duration with no saves.

Yet again, its almost like I said what I said very deliberately for a reason.

Except for spells. Then it is rules over rulings

Sure, because as said, without more substantive guidelines its too easy to just turn your brain off and use "its magic" to justify eliminating the game entirely. You don't need to have a bajillion codified buttons like 5e does, but you do need structure, and much more than mundane approaches do (and ideally you'd have a mix of both for both sides, as Im trying to do with LNO)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Indeed with the right set of magic items a party of fighter don’t need any caster at all.
True, but the game works best with a mix.
And we're talking about something as basic as "throw sand in the eyes". Yet, there is no mechanical guidance for doing that. TEN YEARS and we have zero guidance for how a fighter can do something so basic.
Why would there be guidance on that after the PHB?
Let's be perfectly honest here. At 99.99% of tables out there, the answer would be a simple, "nope, you can't do that." At best, you might be able to blind 2 because you have two attacks, but, even if it was allowed, it would work for one round, if you succeed.
Your experience of the game is vastly different from mine.
We have a couple of paragraphs for how everything else works.

And, as far as I'm concerned, the worst part is, people actually LIKE it this way. Casters get all the love and non-casters might as well not even exist.
What’s the big deal with the “10 YEARS”?
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Okay 4 core classes. How many sun classes for each?

Edit: I find 9 fighter 13 wizard 9 for rogue and cleric 14
So if the 4 core class it is 16 non caster (remeber 1 rogue and 1 fighter become casters) 29 caster… it’s not 2 to 1 but close
More importantly, because the phb subclasses for wizard and cleric are silly, how many since the PHB. After all, I was replying to a comment about wizards getting so many spells post phb.
 

HammerMan

Legend
More importantly, because the phb subclasses for wizard and cleric are silly, how many since the PHB. After all, I was replying to a comment about wizards getting so many spells post phb.
Except the wizard started with the most subclasses. Then casters got more spells lots more. The fighter in 1 book got a few new BM manuvers. The casters got more subclasses then non casters.
 


Remathilis

Legend
That's where multiple classes come in and where D&D fails.
Different classes have different peaks.

The barbarian who just gets stronger, faster, and tougher must bypass Olympian standards if it is to keep up with the Archmage.

The weaponmaster who knows Sensei Wu's Waterfall Slash, Chief Fan's Quashing Pummel, and Lord Ramber's Sword Reign only needs to get to Olympic standards as their special moves are epic.

Whereas the greatest knight does not need to even be Olympic as they have extreme Charm and can attract an intelligent Sword of Chivalry that will only attune to the most knightly of knights.
Amazingly, that answered nothing I was asking.

What is allowing the barbarian to beat Olympian standards? Magic, divine blood, primal spirits, or what? When the weaponmaster uses his epic special moves, are we talking WWE or Super Sayan? When the knight gets his intelligent magic sword, it's the sword that's special and doing the magic wahoo stuff, he's just bearer?

Because I keep asking for a REASON a character can transcend the limits of mere mortals, and I keep getting "lulz, IDK, XP maybe?" and an answer. Actually, what I keep getting is "the wizard can do it and that's not FAIR!"

So I will state this again, as clearly as I can.

A Barbarian is infused with primal spirits that manifest as rage. A Monk trains his spirit and focuses ki into impossible maneuvers. A bloodhunter uses alchemy and magic to infuse his blood. A ranger is in tune with nature, a paladin is blessed by the divine, a warlock imbued by its patron. All of them get the ability to laugh at the limits of normal people due to some supernatural force in story that powers their abilities.

What is powering the fighter's ability to break past mortal limits? The answer determines the peak. Even amongst the current fighter subclasses, each has a different peak. The psi-warrior uses psionics to do telekinetic stuff. Rune knights use rune magic to grow large. Arcane archers use magical arrows. But champions don't have any magic and surprise they don't get to jump mountains. If you added a "Kryptonian" subclass to fighters, I'd be okay with them flying, stopping bullets, or using ice breath. But the base fighter doesn't unless he too is assumed to be supernatural and explained as such. No "¯\(ツ)/¯", an in-universe explanation in the game book that says why Bob the fighter can now fly at 13th level.

Give me that and you have my vote.
 

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
After the PHB, Wizards got Bladesinging, Scribes and War Magic, plus Chronurgy and Graviturgy if you count Wildemount.

Fighter got Arcane Archer, Banneret, Cavalier, Psi Warrior, Rune Knight and Samurai, plus Echo Knight if you count Wildemount.

Wizard seems to have gained 118 new spells after the PHB.
 

Stalker0

Legend
please name a daily that a wizard could pop that would do that. I would love to see that play report. Remember though it is being compared to fighter warlord ranger and rogue 25th level dailies too.
Spell name escapes me, it was the bigbys spell that you get 2 of the hands and you can slam them together. That one often controlled the battlefield and did lots of damage.

Visions of avarice with orb of imposition was a big encounter controller.
 

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