D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[TheSword]

Look, it's pretty simple.

Can my martial character blind an opponent? Say with a saving throw each round to "clear the eyes"? What would be the check for that? What would be the DC? The fact that a 3rd level caster can do this just shows how far the span is. Would you allow my 3rd level fighter to blind an opponent for multiple rounds? Could my 5th level fighter do it to multiple opponents? Could my 7th level fighter do it to three opponents?

And we're talking about something as basic as "throw sand in the eyes". Yet, there is no mechanical guidance for doing that. TEN YEARS and we have zero guidance for how a fighter can do something so basic.

THAT'S the problem.

To be honest, I’m with you.

I play WFRP 4e where any character can spend a bit of the party’s tactical resource and perform an opposed skill test to apply a condition. I like it.

As you say it can be done in D&D currently. It’s just being left to the DM to decide how difficult it is, which I have some sympathy for as well. it can be circumstantial. I don’t want characters built around the ability.

I’d let player throw sand in a characters eyes but they’d get a save and it would take some form of action. The hard thing about this is a martial character is almost always better killing or knocking the victim unconscious. Why blind an orc for a round when you could just take them out of the combat. It’s the reason the blindness spell probably doesn’t see much action.

If I was writing OD&D I would add the Combat Trick action from 3e which could replace an attack and apply a condition with an opposed test if the circumstances allow. Put some mechanics rules behind it.

I’d also allow the Fight Dirty bonus action which allows you to add 1d4 to the damage of another attack that hits that round.

I think we could do a lot more with bonus actions and reactions as part of the base game to keep things tactical and interesting.

All that said there is a big difference between throwing sand in someone’s eyes and cutting through a wall of force, jumping a building or teleporting. I’m all for the first, not at all interested in seeing fighters do the latter.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah!! And when he finally got to Rome, how would he kill the tractor trailer sized fire lizard in direct hand to hand combat..

Let's see the engineers do that..

Wait..
what's that??
you're telling me this now??
Never?? Not once?
OK..ok..how about like a just a car sized fire-lizard?..
I don't know mid-sized, like a sedan or something..
..yeah yeah like a tank...
really..only with explosives??
never with his bare hands or like a sharpened stick ..maybe like a hammer..?
Fine..I know. I know. I hear you. I got it..
...
..
Ok..ok..ok..
let's pivot..
John McLane..
No? Ok..
John Rambo..
Really?? Not him either?
Surely John Wick...surel..
Ohh..negative...got it..
...
...
..
Dominic Torreto...???
...
Yes, like a tank or smething..
No, not with his car, just with like his fists or a knife.. you know..a weapon.
..
Nothing???
Awww c'mon man.


...
Hmmmm...
...
Hmmmm..
..
..
You know you could have told all this when I started, and we wouldn't be in this silly mess.
...
..
Wellllll..

We might need to think through this a bit..maybe brainstorm some stuff like a professional dragonfighter might need to be able to do..

..because hooo boy these action movie guys.. useless..

The Action Hero class would get Action Surge.

But not once per short rest.
X per short rest. X is 1/2 your level.

In almost every action movie, the hero and villian spam actions in short bursts.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm sorry, but, aren't fighters one of the 4 core classes? Rogues?

Are you seriously suggesting that fighters and rogues have gotten anywhere near the amount of additional material that clerics and wizards have gotten?

Put it this way. There are 361 spells in the 5e PHB. Between Tasha's and Xanathar's (which are certainly not the only sources of new spells in 5e D&D), there an additional 116 spells. So, fighters got a grand total of 7 new maneuvers, while casters got 116 spells? And you're seriously suggesting that casters aren't being given priority here?

There are a grand total of Eleven subclasses for fighter in 5e D&D (note this includes unofficial Gunslinger and the classes from Wildemount). There are almost more subclasses for wizards in the PHB ALONE.

One. Subclass.

Other than that one subclass, the fighter and rogue don’t use anything remotely analogous to spells.

What they do have are subclasses, and dependence on weapons which means benefiting more from weapon related feats like Piercer or Crusher.

What I’m suggesting is that support for the fighter looks different than support for the wizard.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah!! And when he finally got to Rome, how would he kill the tractor trailer sized fire lizard in direct hand to hand combat..

Let's see the engineers do that..

Wait..
what's that??
you're telling me this now??
Never?? Not once?
OK..ok..how about like a just a car sized fire-lizard?..
I don't know mid-sized, like a sedan or something..
..yeah yeah like a tank...
really..only with explosives??
never with his bare hands or like a sharpened stick ..maybe like a hammer..?
Fine..I know. I know. I hear you. I got it..
...
..
Ok..ok..ok..
let's pivot..
John McLane..
No? Ok..
John Rambo..
Really?? Not him either?
Surely John Wick...surel..
Ohh..negative...got it..
...
...
..
Dominic Torreto...???
...
Yes, like a tank or smething..
No, not with his car, just with like his fists or a knife.. you know..a weapon.
..
Nothing???
Awww c'mon man.


...
Hmmmm...
...
Hmmmm..
..
..
You know you could have told all this when I started, and we wouldn't be in this silly mess.
...
..
Wellllll..

We might need to think through this a bit..maybe brainstorm some stuff like a professional dragonfighter might need to be able to do..

..because hooo boy these action movie guys.. useless..

Any of them would take the dragon down with a well timed absurdity like launching a car at it or turning something into a missile or dropping building on it somehow.

 

[Hussar]

No skill check, if your regular attack connects the pocket sand connects too. Roll 1d6 to determine duration. No saving throw.

And you can attack 3 times if you have 3 attacks. Thats a weird question to jam into that.

No, it is not a weird question. The fact that you see it as strange tells me how little you actually understand the issue. Blindness/Deafness, as a spell, can be upcast. Casting as a 4th level spell, which any 7th level caster could do, allows the caster to blind three targets.

Like you just said though, improvised action won't allow me to do that. THIS is exactly the problem with "let the DM resolve it". Because, DM's, like you just proved, don't actually understand game mechanics. There is absolutely no "improvised action" which would allow me to restrain multiple targets. Yet, this is something a 3rd level caster can do with Web. My 20th level fighter cannot do what a 3rd level wizard can do.

You can keep harping on about "improvised actions" all you like. It doesn't matter. You wouldn't allow my character to improvise an attack that any equivalent level caster could do. Thus, casters are more powerful regardless of "improvised actions". You just clearly proved it.

 

[Hussar]

All that said there is a big difference between throwing sand in someone’s eyes and cutting through a wall of force, jumping a building or teleporting. I’m all for the first, not at all interested in seeing fighters do the latter.

At the end of the day though, it's all the same. It's just wherever you choose to draw the line. @Emberashh draws the line at limiting effects to the number of attacks you have - thus a fighter can never, ever blind as many targets as a wizard could, no matter what he does. You don't mind the blinding effect, but, a fighter can't "jump a building" which a 1st level caster can do. There's no real difference here, only one of degree.

 

[Hussar]

What I’m suggesting is that support for the fighter looks different than support for the wizard.

Well, I have to admit, I cannot disagree with that.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Improvise Action.

i get your point that it is technically a rule but it's like the barest shadow of an outline of a rule, 'maybe your GM will ask for a skill check to see if you're successful at your action', that's nothing, it provides no player leverage to do anything worth anything with any degree of reliability or even the security that you'll be allowed to be able to attempt it in the first place, and even if you do suceed your effects most likely won't be powerful or long-lasting.

 

[TheSword]

At the end of the day though, it's all the same. It's just wherever you choose to draw the line. @Emberashh draws the line at limiting effects to the number of attacks you have - thus a fighter can never, ever blind as many targets as a wizard could, no matter what he does. You don't mind the blinding effect, but, a fighter can't "jump a building" which a 1st level caster can do. There's no real difference here, only one of degree.

lots of things are just questions of degrees are important.

I think most people would feel a 7th level slot to maybe blind 3 characters for 1 round with a save every round would be mediocre at best.

If a wizard has given up a 7th slot to do this what would you have a fighter give up to achieve the same effect?

 

[HammerMan]

Like it or not the game is designed around rulings over rules, and IA follows that design intent.

Except for spells. Then it is rules over rulings